I tried a bag of Timberwolf Organic kibble once.

It was just one bag, so all I can really comment on is the fact that it passed out with the raw stuff at the same time.

I haven't used kibble since then. No negative anecdotes account for that, it's just I've been over flowing with plenty of raw stuff; dead deer networking.

Free > Not free.

Steve gives the crap kibble
Just kidding Steve!!

Mike,

I am not sure about Innova and raw together, doesn't seem like it would hurt from personal experience but just make sure to switch from Pro plan to Innova slowly so as not to not stress your dog's tummy. If your dog hasn't eaten raw before maybe a switch to a new kibble and raw might now be a good idea all at once.

Best of luck!

Regarding mixing raw and kibble. I found the link! And didn't even have to use Search! http://www.volhard.com/holistic/artbywv.htm I'm quoting the relevant part below, but a few comments first: (1) The author appears to have enough credentials to merit respect for her opinions/statements (I'm the original skeptic, so that's important to me) (2) Time spent in stomach is even longer than Connie remembers, 16 hours vs 4 for raw. The quote explains why this is bad, although it doesn't address the pathogen issue. (3) Ya'll aren't really expecting raw and kibble eaten at the same time to emerge from the other end at different times, are you? That's a bit like trying to separate cake batter into flour, butter, etc by reversing the blades on the mixer! My own take on why combining raw and kibble isn't good is that it keeps all the food in the stomach for much longer than nature intended, which can lead to enzyme robbing, intragastric (love that word!) pathogen colonization, etc. Okay, on with the quote:

 Quote:

According to a Swedish study, raw foods pass through a dog’s stomach and into the intestinal tract in 4 1/2 hours. So after that time span, the dogs were already receiving the energy from that food. Raw foods are the most easily digested by the dog.

Semi moist food, the kind that is found in boxes on the shelves in the supermarket and shaped like hamburgers, or found in rolls like sausages, took almost 9 hours to pass through the stomach.

Dry food took up to 16 hours. So if you choose to feed your dog any kind of dry processed dog food, it will be in his stomach from morning, noon ‘til night.

So what’s the point? Well, let’s take a closer look.

Enzymes and Enzyme Robbing

Enzymes make a body tick. They are either already contained in the body, or made through what we feed our dogs.

When that semi-moist food or dry food sits in the stomach of the dog, it does so because there are not enough enzymes in the stomach to break it down. Remember, a dog’s stomach is designed to deal with raw foods.

So the stomach sends a message to the brain. "Hey, brain, we need some more enzymes down here." And the brain comes back "Okay, okay, but I need some time". It then gathers enzymes from the heart, the liver, the kidneys and other parts of the body to be transported to the stomach. In the meantime, the food sits there until enough enzymes are collected for digestion. This process is called enzyme robbing.

Robbing various parts of the body of enzymes which they themselves need to function correctly, can have a detrimental effect on those organs. A predisposition for problems in those areas, can hasten disease and reduce the life span of the dog.

 Quote:

Enzymes make a body tick. They are either already contained in the body, or made through what we feed our dogs.

 Quote:

It then gathers enzymes from the heart, the liver, the kidneys and other parts of the body to be transported to the stomach.

 Quote:

Robbing various parts of the body of enzymes which they themselves need to function correctly, can have a detrimental effect on those organs.

Before I jump to any conclusions here, are there any references to or from orthodox science publications(i.e. http://www.pubmed.gov) against which I can proof this business of "enzyme robbing"?

A holistic approach to medicine is great, but it has to start with a tight foundation. If someone learns and understand the same foundational chemistry, biology, anatomy, terminology and scientific process, and THEN philosophically diverges (i.e. Pitcairn), that's one thing.

It's another thing to start making s^*$t up (terminology, bodily processes) based on an education pieced together from health food store pamphlets.

It's like garnishing burnt food.

I'm not saying this is the case here, but we've all seen it and recognized it before (I hope).

I would go ahead & switch from the crap kibble to the good kibble asap, none of this "slowly" stuff. I have never had a dog suffer more than a little loose stool (if that). You need to get the dog off that purina NOW!! Nothing but good will come from feeding good quality kibble & RAW, so please don't hesitate.

Anita, as a biology student at the University of Ottawa (Ontario) I have free online access to a huge list of scientific journals.

If you find the source you're looking for but can't access the full article, let me know and I'd be happy to download it for you using my university login

I definitely agree about the problems with just finding random "sources" on the internet. Anyone can post their own opinions and proclaim them as fact, but they don't usually have the data and evidence to back it up. I'm sure we all know by now that even veterinarians are not reliable in terms of providing good information on many topics.

The peer reviewed articles in the higher end journals (like Nature or Science) are the best information you can use to form your own opinion. The experimental methods, statistical analyses, controls etc. are all laid out and you can judge the results for yourself, without having to rely on someone else's opinions.

Granted, you still get the occasional wacko (like that Korean scientist who made false claims about cloning dogs and whatnot and who still managed to get published in Nature).
The peer-review system in the scientific community has its flaws, but it's definitely the best around for now.

Yuko, thanks for the offer. I just, finally, found a site that cites some "real" references, although they don't indicate which statement goes with which reference. http://www.mountaindogfood.com/HealthCare/digestion/digestive_response.htm I wonder if you or Connie or anyone can get hold of some of these books and see what they say about digestion rates, stomachs, enzymes and bacteria colonization. This particular site doesn't say anything about enzyme robbing, but it does have a dicussion about the sodium bicarbonate in dry dog food lowering the ph of the stomach, which allows bacteria that would otherwise be killed to survive. In any case, it's a good (if it is, indeed, accurate) description of the digestive process in dogs). I don't usually consider commercial websites to be authoritative. But as I said, this one does at least cite some veterinary texts we can check for ourselves. I'm going out of town for a few days, so please, anyone else who has access to vet manuals and such, please have at it while I'm gone!

References

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Bradley, OC and Grahame, T. (1943) Topographical Anatomy of the Dog - 4th Edition. The MacMillan Company.
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Budras, K, McCarthy, PH, Fricke, W, and Richter, R. (2002) Anatomy of the Dog: An Illustrated Text - 4th Edition. Schlutersche.
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Ettinger, SJ, and Feldman, EC. (1995) Textbook of Veterinary Internal Medicine - 4th Edition/Volume 2. W.B. Saunders Company.
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Groff, JL, and Gropper, SS. (2000) Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism - 3rd Edition. Wadsworth/Thompson Learning.
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Hand, MS, Thatcher, CD, Remillard, RL, and Roudebush, P. (2000) Small Animal Clinical Nutrition - 4th Edition. Mark Morris Institute.
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Simpson, JW, and Else, RW. (1991) Digestive Disease in the Dog and Cat. Blackwell Scientific Publications.
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Tennant, BC and Hornebuckle, WE. (1989) Gastrointestinal Function. In: Clinical Biochemistry of Domestic Animals - 4th Edition. Jiro J. Kaneko. Academic Press Inc. Pg. 417-461.