It makes sense to use markers, and I assume it's even more useful when teaching difficult tricks.

This specific trainer starts using markers with her dogs when she's teaching them their name. She says "Sam", and as soon as the dog looks at her, she says "yes" and throws a treat to the floor.

Since I've never used markers and my way has worked so far (basic dog tricks only, again) I was a little skeptical. I still don't know if I'll use a clicker. Seems easy to use, but why spend money on something when you can accomplish the same with words. And what if I loose my clicker? No commands that day? lol

The way she taught heel was completely new to me. I teach heel without even using a command (I only have pet dogs, I'm sure Schutzund work is completely different). I just take my dog for a walk, and if he's pulling, I correct him and say tsst. They eventually learn to walk by my side.

She, on the other hand, took the dog for a walk. As soon as he pulled, she stopped, and when the dog would look at her, she would mark it with a yes and give him a treat.

Do you think this is the right way to teach heel? Kind of felt like she only wanted the dog to look at her when they go for a walk.

Alison,

Good distinction. I only use markers when training, not for maintaining obedience. For that I use sporadic rewards.

 Quote: Richard Pryor

Do you think this is the right way to teach heel? Kind of felt like she only wanted the dog to look at her when they go for a walk.

Competition heeling is very different than just having a well mannered dog walking at your side, and so different methods are used. Not eveyone cares if there dog looks at them on a stroll around the block but that kind of attention is good in a competition.

 Quote: alison voore

I don't mean to pick, but there are a couple of misleading points in the last post...................Specifics, Specifics, Specifics- I know.....

Oh Allison, please don't take me out of context. I agree with your view on marker training 100%. Perhaps my choice of words and phrasing wasn't textbook perfect.

 Quote: alison voore

 Quote:

Hearing "yes" becames a reward to the dog.

This is the incorrect way to use a marker. A marker never become the reward- it ENSURES a treat reward. This is one of the most common mistakes made by people new to marker training. If you do not give a treat EVERY time you use the marker, it loses it value and meaning. ALWAYS treat after you use the marker. Marker= treat.

I believe the use of a marker always equates to a reward. I just do not always use treats. I use treats to motivate a dog in the learning phases of obedience and phase out treats as soon as possible and substitute verbal praise of varying degrees every time the marker is used. My intermittent schedule of reward is used in relation to "jackpot" type rewards such as treats, play with ball, etc. to highlight when the dog has done especially well.

 Quote: alison voore

 Quote:

Compare it too playing slot machines, you lose most of the time, but are addicted to playing for the few times you do get a cash payout. Its the same for a dog and a positive marker like "yes". Intermittent rewards.

This is also a valuable training technique called a variable ratio schedule of reinforcement, but is NOT a part of marker training. After your dog is taught a behavior, you drop the marker and begin using a variable schedule of reinforcement (VSR) instead of a treating every behavior.
A VSR (also called intermittent rewards) is when you give a treat for only some of the good behaviors done, the rest you withhold a treat and praise another way (if at all), like verbal or play.(If rewarding with play, you withhold the game and praise another way). When you don't give a treat, the dog wanders why and this increases his behavior performance in order to see if he gets a treat next time- the slot machine effect. This is the only time guessing is good for your dog. The guess of when he will get a treat keeps his obedience sharp.
This is only done after the dog is completely trained in a behavior and you are no longer using the marker to teach. Also, do not use a consistent pattern of intermittent rewards- vary it often keeping it as lean (less rewards) as your dog will work for. Only use a VSR on behaviors your dog knows, not ones he is learning.

With the slot machine comparison, you don't really lose every time. You are rewarded with bright lights, bells, and whistles, etc. People get excited by that....small reward....enough to keep going......and sometimes...Jackpot! Pure Bliss! It is the same with dogs.

I have also heard a similiar analogy with slots used for behavior shaping through the dogs problem solving ability as you suggested. This is correct, but, I was only referring to the obedience side of the arguement, which it sounds like we both agree on.

I know intermittent rewards is a seperate issue from marker training. I was responding to Richards question about how marker training was different than his way of using treats only. I wanted to point out that marker training with a intermittent reward schedule as I discussed can eliminate dependency on treats quicker with less conflict.

 Quote: alison voore

 Quote: james

...specific meaning of a properly conditioned marker like "yes".

A marker is not conditioned by using it too often. A marker is specifically trained so that the dog understands what it means- which should be that it marks the correct behavior and earns the dog a treat. It is not something you just start saying and hope the dog figures it out. There would be no purpose or benefit in using a marker unless the dog knew what it meant.
This is why "good dog", if not conditioned to be a marker will never become a marker. "Good Dog" earns the association of praise, and becomes a reward in itself, but is not as refined as a marker, identifying the exact moment a behavior occurred & ensuring a food reward. Therefore, you can use "good dog" in training and see results, but not a good as results as you would get with using a marker for teaching and then "good dog" as a verbal reinforcer later.

We are saying the same thing here....I used 'conditioned'....you used 'trained'...but we are saying the same thing about "yes" or any marker. We must train the dog to understand what it means.

 Quote: alison voore

Alot of behaviors trained with marker training never have a cue, only an action- like training a dog to be calm, or to stand with a higher tail in the show ring, or in shaping part of a behavior.

When I said "command", I meant verbal command. When I said "Cue", I meant an action. That is why I specifically mentioned "command" and "cue" seperately. I did not elaborate on this b/c it did not seem neccasary for the main issues of marker training asked in this thread by Richard.

James,
I don't mean to dissect so deeply. (It a boring day in my home today- lol.)
I think it is important for people new to marker training to understand all the specifics. It's hard to guess what people mean if they have never been exposed to it before.
I help train pet owners to train their dogs. Many people come to me with the problems & saying they've tried marker training & it's not working. Why? Because they have been exposed to incorrect marker training techniques and told in short how to do it and tried it without understanding it. Once I show them the right way, it works miracles for them and they can do it. They can train without my constant help & we get the dog doing more stuff, faster.
Sorry got confused on the wordage (is that a word?). To me: Command, cue, prompt all mean the same. "The behavior" is the action of the dog.


Richard,

the trainer you spoke about in your last post is correctly teaching those behaviors with the marker. She is using good timing and setting the dog up to display the behaviors she wants to capture and mark.

Your question about the heeling- Once your dog understands the heel position (next to your left side) you can drop the marker and begin using the VSR to shape the behavior more. If you want your dog to look at you then, you would only reward those times he looks at you and reward the longer periods of eye contact. The dog will begin doing this more, since it is what he is getting rewarded for. If you don't care if he looks at you or not, then you would just randomly reward periods of good heeling next to your side.

Tricks are easier to train with markers. Once you start training with markers, you'll notice your dog showing lots of unusual behaviors trying to see whether he'll get a marker+treat or not. We use lures to persuade the dog into position and then mark, but sometimes a dog will show you something all on his own. For example, instead of luring the dog into a sit with a treat, just stand in front of him and let him do whatever he wants, wait patiently and most dogs will eventually sit- mark and treat it. This called the capture method. You can capture the dog doing the behavior for behaviors that are hard to lure. When given the chance, the lure is usually mentally easier on the dog though.

You also don't have to use a clicker. If you did though and you lose it, you just couldn't train any NEW behavior that day, but you can practice on all the behaviors your dog already knows. "Yes" as the marker word works great- just as well as a clicker, though the clicker sites have studies proving they work better- how much better is it really? Probably not even measurable by anyone other than a scientist.

I think you'll find marker training to be easy to do and your dog will learn easier too. He sounds smart already!

Alison Voore

Alison, perhaps we're disagreeing over semantics...

I said, "after you establish your marker word results in a treat", then move on to random treating -- This is the same as your VRS in my book...

I don't continue giving food rewards throughtout training, but segue to praise & affection (for the most part, though not entirely) instead -- However, I do maintain the use of a marker word & it works like the children's game of "hotter or colder" so that when my dogs offer the desired behavior, they receive affirmation from the marker (I use !YES!)...

No doubt there's more than one way to skin a cat <:-)

OOPS! My bad.....

 Quote:

... after you establish that your marker word means getting a treat, easing into only treating at random with the marker is MORE motivating to the dog & results in keener obedience to commands

I missed the words "easing into only treating". Sorry about that.
In my mind I thought you were trying to say: after the dog knows what the marker means, you can stop treating every once in awhile while using the marker. That's what I based my response on after.

Based on what you really did write, Yes, that what a VSR is. We are on the same page. Sorry again for the misread.

Alison Voore

No prob, Alison, thanks for the response <:-)