I think a lot of people are missing the point, and that is probably my fault. I was unhappy with him at first because he bowled Missy over by slamming into her. I "smacked" his butt because Missy was leaning on me when it happened. Duke growled at me, that is what started the correction. I put him on his back and told him NO, he proceeded to growl at me again. The correction only escelated when he continued to attempt to stare me down and growl at me. When he stopped growling, that is when he was put on a down-stay, and he heeled back to the house.

I can see why people thought I was over reacting but I (small woman) can't have my 100lb GSD growling at ANYONE let alone the defacto pack leader. (Hubby is top dog but he is gone right now)

You're right, growling should always be swiftly and strongly corrected.

We just don't agree with how you did it

The alpha roll for one is the best way for you to get your face ripped off. Ed mentions several cases where this has happened so I wouldn't risk it.

Do you have a prong collar for Duke? If you fit a prong collar onto him (properly) and have him drag a line attached to it when loose, you can grab hold of the line when needed to give a correction.

In any case, it's always best to start off with a verbal warning (not fair to the dog to get his butt kicked out of nowhere) when the bad behaviour is starting. If you step in early enough, before it escalates to the point of body slamming and growling at you, then you can settle everything with less force.

When done properly, corrections are quick and effective. There's no smacking, hitting, rolling the dog over, sitting on it, holding its throat etc. etc. etc.

One quick jerk with a prong, or quietly lifting the dog's front legs off the ground with a dominant dog collar (a choke collar). Otherwise you're just scaring and bullying your poor dog - he did go into complete avoidance didn't he? Tucking his tail and looking away from you?

That's taking it too far - I get giving a huge correction for something like trying to bite a child, but if you do this for every little behaviour, you'll just destroy your bond with this dog.

Plus you could very well get injured. As you said, you're no match for him if he decides to attack you (which he probably will if you continue alpha rolling him). Just be careful - I'd hate it if this dog were to maul you because of your improper handling techniques

Again, take the time to read some of Ed's articles on the matter. It will show you where you're going wrong and will teach you the groundwork program that you can put this dog through so that it respects you.

The ground work to becoming a pack leader does not entail using a lot of physical force and conflict to make the dog submit.

If you do this right, you will gain the dog's respect and not make it fear you like it does now.

I understand you were shocked when your dog growled. I think the better way to handle the situation is as everyone has already advised. Very calmly lift the dog with a nylon choke until he calms down. They struggle a little at first, but calm down quickly in a few seconds. I think the really important thing is to remain really calm. If your blood is boiling, the correction you deliver could do more harm than good. Also you need to let the situation go after a few minutes. Dogs don't keep thinking about it as we do, and for sure he wasn't thinking about it the next morning!!! One caution, I think a pinch collar correction might have been a bad move as in that particular situation many dogs will escalate with that kind of correction.

I understand that you are small, I am too and my 110 pound male Bloodhound can be an A** at times (not listening, wandering off, chasing the cats, trying to eat my trainer and anyone that gets close to his crate while he is in it....ect) and he also as strong as a bull-ox. A strong verbal NO is 99% of the time, is all that is needed. When he hears this command the way that I say it he goes into a down and gives me this woe-begone "I'm sorry Mom" look.
I have never had to do anything more that have a prong on him when we are out around alot of people and give him a good swift "rate the offense and dole out accordingly" correction (also it keeps him from dragging me around, BH are not the most obedient creatures) .

You mention that your husband is top dog, this may very well be the issue here. The dog does not respect you like he respects your husband.

The dog has no way to know that he is not supposed to body slam your female when she is leaning on you and still....hitting them, smacking them, cuffing them or whatever is not correct. Doesn't matter what the dog did, a proper correction is the only way to go.

Also, if your husband is top dog and you are trying to perform the whole body slamming routine, that is a recipe for disaster. If you think you are not strong enough to handle the dog without using a shoe or whatever to "correct" the dog, then I feel you are flirting with getting bit since you may not be strong enough to hold the dog down.

I agree with Yuko about the prong collar. Also, you can look into the dominant dog collar. They work well also.

Hope this helps and we really are here to help you with your dog. Honest....

 Quote: yuko blum

Judy, so is your position "so what?" for this behaviour, or is it a "more fair correction"?
Sorry, wasn't clear to me from your post

Sorry, thought I was clear that I didn't agree with anything she did??

I'm telling her in my post that if this was the first time that her male ran into her female GSD, and the owner did not like this, then a more fair correction would be in order, I.E. a verbal "no", a slight tug on the leash, stopping the playtime, etc.

Ok gotcha, Judy.

Sorry, my brain is slow today...

I was wondering if you had your coffee today.

Lol, the coffee is doing its part - my brain just isn't keeping up

 Quote: carol boche

Hope this helps and we really are here to help you with your dog. Honest....

I agree with this. It is a perfectly natural response for some people to:

a.) get mad when a previously compliant dog challenges you, or
b.) do what you *thought* was a correct response because of bad information you got in the past.

If you handled your dog that way because you were mad: While getting mad may be a human response, it's not a *pack leader* response. To best communicate and maintain your bond with your dog, anger is counter-productive, and often dangerous. Following the advice previously given in this thread is, IMO, the best way to handle this situation. Calmly. With authority, not anger.

If you handled your dog the way you did because you had the best intentions, and thought that was the correct response, well...lesson learned and applause for casting out for other ways to handle it. From the tone of your post, it seems that you thought you were doing the right thing. There are many old school trainers who will make you think you have to "knock some sense into the dog."

Being heavy-handed with a dog was the preferred way of dealing with your type of situation for a long time. Perhaps that's what you were taught. You can get a dog who's obedient and submissive to you because he's fearful. But you will never have a good relationship with a reliable dog that way. It is just not the best way to do it, plain and simple.

Yes, dogs do discipline each other. But they do it fairly. OFten times, you will have to discipline your dog physically. But true physical corrections are not abuse...they are lessons. They are fair and the dog will understand them and respect you for them...not be afraid of you.

The language of discipline that comes so easily to dogs is something that people have to strive to learn, and that means making mistakes. There isn't anyone on this site who hasn't done the wrong thing with their dogs at one time or another. Even the most experienced trainer here can't say that they know absolutely everything there is to know about training and living with dogs.

So while we are...<a-hem>... a *direct* bunch of people , I hope you realize that this group is also very motivated to help people learn and do better.

The next time this happens, with this dog or another...try what has been suggested here instead of your old method. You will see for yourself that it's a better way, I really believe that.

Good luck!

Thank you Amber,
I was feeling like a complete failure as a dog trainer until your post.

I truly wasn't mad, I was more of the opinion that this had to be nipped in the bud. I do not tolerate any growling at people, they growl and play fight and that is acceptable but growling at Mom is NOT OK.

Since my hubby has been deployed Duke has tried quite a few little challenges, but this is the first LARGE test he has tried. If he had had a collar on I would have used it. I don't use his prong collar when they are out playing since we have trees and underbrush, that will have to change I guess.