Re: Finally broke down & bought a prong collar
[Re: Alex Corral ]
#133542 - 03/16/2007 02:15 PM |
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Do you suggest not calling her name at all while walking? Just click and treat? If she gives me voluntary eye contact, mark and treat that also?
Yes...
Think of a correction... the dog has to know EXACTLY what contributed to the cause of the correction, otherwise the handler may wind up with an improper association on the part of the dog and that could also lead to further problems.
The clicker is the same thing. A "marker" marks a behavior or event; like a photograph. The dog determines what contributed to the cause of the click (marker) and they learn from it. If you call the dogs name and the dog looks, gets clicked, and then gets a treat.. the dog may start to learn that looking in response to its name brings reward, not leash walking. What you want is for the dog to learn that the proper walking position and a loose leash brings forth a click and a reward. Later these things can be paired up but until dog has learned both seperately they should be taught as individual behaviors.
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Re: Finally broke down & bought a prong collar
[Re: Alex Corral ]
#133543 - 03/16/2007 02:22 PM |
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Gradually increase the time that you expect her to walk slack and reward for the longer times, while eventually not treating for the shorter times.
Use her name for when you would like her to make eye contact with you. Click and treat until she is well conditioned to do this. Then you can drop the click and just use praise and/or treats. For voluntary eye contact, I just smile and verbaly praise. They do this to test you to see if they get a treat for just looking without a command. You would reward for voluntary eye contact if you wanted her to watch you all the time while heeling. This is impracticle though unless you were training for a competition heeling routine.
Use a different command, like "slow", "easy", whoa" to tell her she needs to slow down and remain slack on the leash. Once she slacks, praise, or if she continues, pop the leash and reward once she slows to slack again. But use this in combonation with continuing to praise for increased time periods of slack.
Another note, your wife is going to have to practive this with her also, in order to have her walk on a slack leash with her also. Dogs don't generalize and if she learns to walk slack with you, it doesn't mean she will walk slack with your wife. Give your wife the leash and walk next to her or behind while holding another leash to do the correcting with or as a safety leash.
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Re: Finally broke down & bought a prong collar
[Re: Alison Mayo ]
#133547 - 03/16/2007 02:41 PM |
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I hear you on the voluntary eye contact, but I have not met a dog yet that will maintain this for long periods without strict specialized training. What I train for with this (in a companion dog) is a dog that will check in with me once in a while when on a walk.
Alison, is right about starting with short walks and gradually improving on the dog's proficiency, then later phasing out food, I agree totally. Once the dog seems to be getting better the food should start to come less and less frequently. However, you still need to demonstrate to the dog that the proper walking behavior is what you want him to do; this is done with markers. Food and markers are also phased out with the "checking in" too, but after the dog has started to "get the hang of it" so to speak, I don't continue with this for long only a couple of weeks.
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Re: Finally broke down & bought a prong collar
[Re: Brad . Martin ]
#133550 - 03/16/2007 03:01 PM |
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Thank you Brad & Alison for the tips. Ok, so let me start over. So, when we head off on our walk, if there is slack in the leash, mark and treat. No "good girl, or calling her name. Don't treat (yet) for eye contact because that will come later w/the heel command. If she begins to pull, I say "slow down" and if she doesn't, pop her leash and if she slows down, mark and treat. This seems like it should be pretty easy. She was walking fairly well, but I don't know what caused our progress to regress, hence the whole prong collar idea.
Another question, does it matter if she is walking next to me or a few steps ahead, but there is still slack? I read that the dog should never walk in front, and also that is doesn't matter. My dog is ALWAYS walking a few steps ahead otherwise the leash is tight to keep her right along my left knee. Another thing I noticed is when she begins to speed up again, I get frustrated and say her name. I need to stop that don't I?
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Re: Finally broke down & bought a prong collar
[Re: Alex Corral ]
#133553 - 03/16/2007 03:27 PM |
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You can always give calm praise (good girl) if she is doing well. When she is walking properly I would give intermittent clicks with treats or if something more difficult happens (another dog crosses street and yours stays with -for example- you click and treat). I do not let my dog walk ahead of me because it is more difficult to regain control once it is lost and to easy to loose it if she is doing well when we encounter a distraction (like a barking dog behind a fence) being in proper position all the time is what my expectation is. If you give the dog a correction and it fixes its position I would give a litle pat and some praise, "that's fine" but nothing more. If you want to do precision heel later then you can wait on marking eye contact because, yes that will come later. However, I would still acknowledge the effort with a bit of verbal praise. When I am first teaching leash walking or re-teaching a dog I don't use the dogs name, but when I train things are kept very "black and white" to avoid any confusion that could be created for the dog by overloading them with too much at one time.
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Re: Finally broke down & bought a prong collar
[Re: Alex Corral ]
#133556 - 03/16/2007 03:45 PM |
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Right BEFORE she pulls, say "slow" command, then correct for not slowing or praise for slowing. Right now when she speeds up you are saying her name to try to get her to slow down. Start to use the "slow" command instead. The slow command is more like a warning to her that means, slow down and you will get praise or I wil correct you.
Because timing is so difficult to master in this situation, the clicker is best not used unless you have really good timing on marking the exact moment she responds to the command. Treat and verbal praise is best unless you have really good timing.
If there is slack in the leash, praise and randomly treat. The clicker again here should be used only to mark and extention in time she has mastered. For example, she can walk on a slack leash for 10 seconds. Now increase the time to 15 seconds, when you reach 15 seconds with a slack leash, mark and treat. Make sure she is paying attention and not just unconsciously walking slack or praise is better in that situation. In other words, use the clikcer to solve a problem, like a time barrier she can't seem to break or a distraction that's difficult to ingnore, or in the situation where you are teaching the slow command. Click a specific behavior- It's easier for her to identify the exact behavior when she's focused on you rather than just clicking when she may not quite be sure what you clicked for (like during a slack leash walk).
It's your decision to choose whether you want her to walk a few steps ahead or exactly next to you. Whatever your goal is, remember to set the bar low and break the behavior down into baby steps. If she is a dedicated puller, you may only get a few steps slack and they will be infront. That's still a start though! If she is just a sloppy walker and sometimes pulls, you can begin near your side and allow a few steps in front until she is better at remaining slack for a couple minutes, then start to perfect the behavior by only praising the next to you walking and saying slow when she begins to step out in front.
The reason a dog should not walk in front is because it helps keep the pack in order. The pack leader walks in front. Some people are strict on this, others not. Make sure you are following good groundwork with your dog and that she knows you are the pack leader. This in itself will help the loose leash training since some dogs naturally submit to walking loose leash next or behind you when they realize you are the pack leader.
Another tip: Also walk quickly when training her to walk next ot you. It will help you catch up with her quick gait and make more oppurtunity for the leash to be slack and then you can praise her to help her to get the idea that slack is good, tight is bad. After she masters loose leash walking fsat then you can begin to perfect the behavior by trying it slower gradually and using your "slow" command.
Progress may regress at times, or plateau, but that is just her learning and testing. It's important to remain consistent and also realize a dog need a breal to be a dog too. Always keep training a challenge.
Behaviors can become stagnant and loose motivation if you continue to click and treat the same thing over and over and over. If your dog can do it 8 times out of 10 then you need to step up your expectations and teach a new part of it, or make it harder, or maintain the behavior with less treats and more praise. Clickers are only for teahcing. Once they know what you want, start to perfect the behavior and use random reinforcement to increase motivation.
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Re: Finally broke down & bought a prong collar
[Re: Alex Corral ]
#133559 - 03/16/2007 03:49 PM |
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...Another question, does it matter if she is walking next to me or a few steps ahead, but there is still slack? I read that the dog should never walk in front, and also that is doesn't matter. My dog is ALWAYS walking a few steps ahead otherwise the leash is tight to keep her right along my left knee. Another thing I noticed is when she begins to speed up again, I get frustrated and say her name. I need to stop that don't I?
Hello Alex,
My dogs will tend to TRY to walk slightly ahead of me, a few
steps. What I do is when I walk my two GSDs, either when on
separate walks or when walking them together, are two things.
First, I say, "wait", then immediately give a pop on their
prongs. They get back in position right away. Other times, I'll
stop in my tracks, and the dogs get self corrected on their
prongs. They immediately look back at me, and both of them will
sit and wait for me. The sit was taught at first by allowing the
self correction (along with a pop - timed just right), and when
they looked back at me, I commanded, "Sitz".
They test me, especially on dual walks, but those times are
getting further and further away.
PS: I walk my female on my left, and the male on my right. I do
not plan on formal OB w/him, so I really don't care if he's not
used to the left-side position.
Just my 2 cents of un-asked advice
God Bless,
Martin
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Re: Finally broke down & bought a prong collar
[Re: Martin Espericueta ]
#133568 - 03/16/2007 04:47 PM |
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Thanks for your advice everyone. I try to keep my dog walking next to me because I know the pack leader walks in front, I practice NILF training with her, so when its time to eat, she sits and waits til I say she can eat. When I open a door for her she sits and waits til I say she can go through, if we are both walking out the door I always go 1st. I just didn't know how strict I should be walking since she is only a few steps in front(my knee is by her waist). I'll make it a point to speed up our walk as well. I make it a point to have fun with her also. When we get to a grassy area, I say "free" and let her wander around on leash and sniff as she pleases. When it's time to go, I put her in a sit and we walk off. I guess it's just more practice I need and I will incorporate the tips everyone has given me.
When she begins to walk ahead, I have stopped and she will self correct then v e r y s l o w l y sit her butt down. When that's the case or to just give a correction, I am snapping the leash to the right. Does that sound right? I've heard when you pull backwards on the leash it only makes them want to go forward even more.
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Re: Finally broke down & bought a prong collar
[Re: Alex Corral ]
#133572 - 03/16/2007 05:29 PM |
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When she begins to walk ahead, I have stopped and she will self correct then v e r y s l o w l y sit her butt down. When that's the case or to just give a correction, I am snapping the leash to the right. Does that sound right? I've heard when you pull backwards on the leash it only makes them want to go forward even more.
Are you correcting after she self-corrects? If so, she
maybe confused as to why she gets the second correction. If
you're timing is dead-on (your correction is exactly during her
self correction), then that's ok.
Have you indeed incorporated a "sitz" during this correction? If
so, then a second pop from you is in order. But, if she's
slowly sitting on her own, w/o you commanding her to sit (at
first) - then I think the second correction is unfair.
And as far as a prong correction goes, a "pull" would not be the
way to use it effectively. Quick pops (at either levels 1 through
10) are the effective way to correct. So yes, if she's on your
left side, a right-hand pop is correct.
God Bless,
Martin
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Re: Finally broke down & bought a prong collar
[Re: Alison Mayo ]
#133600 - 03/16/2007 10:45 PM |
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Click a specific behavior- It's easier for her to identify the exact behavior when she's focused on you rather than just clicking when she may not quite be sure what you clicked for (like during a slack leash walk).
This is true, which is why I wouldn't recommend using her name when working specifically on leash walking. (Alison made a good comment on avoiding the use of the clicker if your timing is poor.)
If you give a dog a correction it should be a quick pop; the reason some dogs will put their weight forward on their collar when being corrected in a backward motion is becasue that correction comes as a slow steady/constant pressure. It's like pushing a person, they will instinctively put a foot behind themself to stop from falling over. So what you want from a leash correction with a prong is pinch around the dogs neck without the pressure.
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