point taken! what kind of work do your mastiffs do?

Our club has one of the only two Presas, in this country, with a SchH I.
The owner has been breeding them for a number of years and I like what see in her dogs.
As with any of the molossus breeds, many don't have what it takes today. Lots of nerve issues but a good one is a great guard dog.
I have to dissagree with the statement about getting a dog that you can physically overpower if necessary.
Control and training are all about leadership, not physical control.
View Boogie, and links to the breeders site here. http://www.rwdc.org

I guess I agree with that also. I always thought that intelligence and leadership are more important than physical control. You have to control the mind to control the body. Anybody agree? AS far as the tragedy goes, I believe that was the cause of gross negligent ownership. Like Cesar says, don't blame the breed.

The Presa's that I was referring to are in the Sacramento area and do French Ring. I have never seen them work but I have heard they do pretty well in the area of protection. The dogs involved in the tradjedy in San Francisco were totally screwed up, and the person handling those dogs had no business with that type of dog. It was a problem waiting to happen.

yes and how many German shepherd owners are just the same.But making large breeds into PPD and making it more and more attractive is a recipe to disaster, because of the determination in those breeds.
Old dog: leadership is great and should be present at all times, but then explain why we use at times(not me) but many handlers 2 E-collars, and then when that does not work guess what , you go and get your dog off the sleeve, you choke him off and so on.SO you mean to tell me that at no point handlers doing their bite work NEVER have to physically go and get their dogs off?? No flippin way.
That happened all the time on dogs that are high in drives and very much into the bite.Sorry but I see it all the times and the handlers have great leadership.
A large molossus breed, is a very determined dog and if he wants to go and bite ,good luck with your leadership and you cannot assume that everyone that owns one has even 10 % of respect from their dogs and then to have them purchase a molossus breed for PPD?? good god..We have come across so many individuals that have purchase a GSD for PPD and cannot control their dogs when they come on the field, I'd hate to start seeing mastiff type breeds come out with those types of individuals..
A good scenario would be that let say a owner of a Presa had an intruder on their property and the presa(trained in PPD) goes after that person and starts to drag him all over the place , i doubt one person (being the owner)could stop his dog that fast.And you cant forget the liabilities that goes with having a PPD.My fear is that you have so many idiots out there that purchase GSD for PPD will also be attracted by the big large mastiff breeds trained for PPD.Too many people purchase GSD and can't control them..Adding Presa to that list is even worse.

I agree pretty much with what you just said about their determination which is one reason I have refused to go and meet this lady. I have no intention of working her dogs for her precisely because of that reason. To explosive and not enough control.

Thanks for understanding, and I am speaking out of experience growing up with French Mastiffs( I know the strength behind those dogs) and being in our club seeing these people who purchased gsd for ppd reasons, and they cannot control their dog.I mean, can you imagine a 105 woman who calls you over to work on her dog that maybe prehaps has PPd training and during training he decides he does not like your presence, do you think she'll be of any help against a 130 lb mastiff that is determined to have you in his mouth?That's a huge chance to take...So you have to think how does someone control such trained PPD dog in their home when someone is at the door(and I'm talking about a PPD trained dog).Yes there are some people with knowledge and leadership that can be great at handling a dog like that but they are few and far between.I saw a few days ago at the park a lady getting literally dragged by a huge pit bull across the parking lot and she COULD NOT stop her dog from pulling.No one wanted to help her because they were afraid of her dog.And i want to say tha tI love the mastiff breeds, I just don't think we need to make them PPD dogs for everyone..

 Quote: enrique muniz

I was just wondering if anybody has had any experience with Presas as PPD's, particulary from Red Star Kennel. Ther web site looks quite impressive, but since I really have NO CLUE as to what really protection work is I'd like some opinions. I've read articles, but I've never seen PPD live.

Thanks
enrique

I went to Red Star for a few months to do ring stuff with my dog. Very nice people and very deep experience with Presas...their stock is straight from the Canary Islands, Irina goes there often to evaluate dogs.

Her dogs compete in ringsport, at least one of her Presas has a Brevet in MR, Irina's got a fawn bitch that has at least a Brevet in French Ring. That one is a very hard-hitting dog. Presas are very impressive-looking animals, hard working, and trainable...at least, hers are. If you are set on a Presa, either Irina's or perhaps Bob's club member (I do not know her but she pulls Irina's stock) are about the only places I'd go.

I have seen a huge male Presa go into avoidance under mild pressure, and collapse completely under moderate pressure. The stable ones look stable to me, the nervy ones make me very nervous.

They (Red Star) use Mals for more serious sport stuff, by the way.

I would not recommend getting a Presa for your first "PPD" dog. Not sure why anyone would need a PPD mastiff, myself.

JMO.

Edited to say, the social costs of owning a Presa are very high these days. Keep that in mind before you sign up for one. I hate to say it but I'd be quite wary if someone in my neighborhood had one. You need to know what you are doing around that breed, and I would say that you need to train with people that have been around that breed for awhile.

Angeligue, I agree 100% that certain people shouldn't have certain dogs. I have a 13 lb JRT that is more dog then most could handle. I still say that control doesn't have to be about overpowering a dog.
NONE of the dogs at our club need to be pulled off of a bite. That includes a number of Presas, GSDs, Rotty, Pits.
Not only do we not use e-collars, pinch collars, etc but we use no physical corrections whatsoever.
You mentioned about those using e-collars, etc , and even those methods fail. Well, if a dog is trained with compulsion you WILL have to use compulsion to control it. If a dog is trained with total motivational methods, as are ALL our dogs, then loss of reward can be as powerful as any collar or correction. There are a few people that can handle my dog during bite work. One is a tiny little gal that MIGHT weight 95 lbs if she wears wet sox.
He'd happily eat a few others that tried to work him.
The Pressa breeder on our club is a woman. She has one dog at her kennel that is a rescue that mauled it's former owner. With her, the dog is a big pussy cat.
I've called my working terriers out of the earth when they were fully engaged with quarry (coon, groundhog, fox, etc).
I've also dropped my GSD with a Platz command when he was full out, and a tail length behind a cat. It's leadership and correct training. Not power!

Well our club does not either,and I was not talking about physical corrections either, but I have seen plenty of people who cannot control their dogs and have to go and get their dogs. I am not talking about someone going and physically beating their dog off the helper simply a dog that is determined to get the helper regardless of the recalls and the handler has to go and grab his dog.But tools like an e-collar does not work 100% of the time, and I don't know that on a big mastiffs' neck an e-collar would be sufficient, I have seen on this board a mal with 2 e-collars to be able to control the dog when he's in drive.There are plenty of dogs that won't out because they are high in drives and their handlers have to physically go and get their dogs and are able to do just fine.My point was that a canary dog or other mastiff breeds are not as easy to manage.And I am not talking about the people that train 4 days a week and compete ect.. we are talking about the average citizen who decides that a mastiff PPD is the answer to their problems and don't know crap about PPD training and pack structure, there are many out there..
I was NOT talking about clubs, that have people getting educated on handling dogs ,train their dogs,etc.. I 'm talking about the average dog owner.Most people I have met buying PPD here ,are your average dog owners and have absolutely no knowledge about what even makes a PPD.That's who worries me, not k9 club members
There are more people that know nothing about dog training then ones that do.I think your club sounds great and too bad we don't have more like it but I am talking about the average dog owner..