Quote: Richard Pryor

....Innova. I'm sure my dog is getting a lot more protein from his raw chicken/rabbit/turkey/etc... than yours will get from his kibble, and he seems fine.

I'm with you.

Nutrition research moves pretty fast, and the last few years have changed many of the protein-for-dogs ideas, from understanding that grain protein is not appropriate for dogs as a steady source, to challenging the protein-and-kidney ideas that are still entrenched in much of the vet world.

Here are 16 excerpts debunking the old protein-kidney idea:

http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html#protein

QUOTE: .... newer research shows dietary protein is not detrimental to kidney function. On the contrary, protein restriction can result in impaired wound healing, diminished immune function and lowered enzyme activities and cellular turnover. by Susan Thorpe-Vargas, Ph.D. and John C. Cargill, M.A., M.B.A., M.S.

QUOTE: High protein diets cause an increase in blood flow through the kidney (glomerular filtration rate). The myth has been that if the dietary protein is restricted, this will make the kidney work less, and will ‘spare' the kidney from damage. Thus in the past, many have recommended low protein diets to ‘protect' a dog from developing kidney disease. This has been the focus of considerable research over the last 10 years. There has been no scientific evidence to support this theory. The feeding of low levels of dietary protein are NOT protective against the development of kidney disease. END from Patricia Schenck, DVM, PhD, Veterinary Nutritionist

Hi Richard,

I keep hearing that, but my inbox says it's not full. My email is in my profile, I believe; send me an email. Thanks!

So glad someone saved all those links ! I get so tired of hearing that old crap...especially from vets! I get someone to switch their dog to, at the very least, a decent kibble, then they just HAVE to go see the vet and tell them the dog's on different food and then the vet terrifies them with a statement like "What?!? That's higher protein than CAT food! Is she TRYING to ruin his kidneys?" ARGH .

I really wish people would start taking more personal responsibility for their own animals and do their own research. While I'd like to think that most vets are well-meaning, they are not infallible, and people need to realize how little nutritional training they get in the first place, and also, all the new developments in health and nutrition that they're not yet aware of because of underwriting by massive dog food companies. No aspect of healthcare, animal or human, should be so commercialized and profit-oriented, but that's the way it is, and people need to come to terms with that. YOUR dog is YOUR responsibility, and second-guessing and questioning is GOOD.

The internet makes it so easy that no one has an excuse not to do their own checking on something that doesn't sit right with them. Sorry to rant, but I hate to see utter myths gain so much momentum and drive up Science Diet sales, all the while lining pockets, and the animals are the ones paying the price.

So glad to hear the debunking of protein damaging kidneys. My last GSD had kidney disease and the vet sold me some very low protein kibble (didn't know about feeding raw then) and canned food, which she just wouldn't eat but a couple of bites. She became depressed and low in energy, but not for long, just a week or so, until I took the food back to the vet (he was NOT happy) and told him I'd rather see her happy for the time she had left, like when she was on the good kibble (Chicken Soup) and canned (Merrick's) I was giving her. (Boy, vets sure hate to be questioned or disagreed with!!!) Needless to say, she went back to being happy and energetic.

Dogs probably need more protein than humans (just a thought). I know that if I get low protein amounts for even one day, I'm not feeling well at all. I can't imagine a dog on low protein. Well, I can, as I saw it for myself.

Sometimes it's best to go with your instinct and what you see in front of you, which is what I did for my dog.

Don't we all have a bunch of dogs in our past that we wish we'd known then what we know now?

LOL, Sandy, I can just picture you marching in there w/that nasty-a$$ bag of food and heaving it back to them. I'm sure they were shocked! Nice image! Kudos on going with your gut for YOUR dog's best interests.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

Don't we all have a bunch of dogs in our past that we wish we'd known then what we know now?

LOL, Sandy, I can just picture you marching in there w/that nasty-a$$ bag of food and heaving it back to them. I'm sure they were shocked! Nice image! Kudos on going with your gut for YOUR dog's best interests.

I can't begin to tell you how I wish I had known about raw feeding before this. I'm inclined to believe that if I had fed my kidney diseased GSD raw food from the time I got her at 9 years, she would probably have lived at least another 6 months.

Yeah, the vet had this angry look on his face, looked at me like I didn't love my dog....but maybe a bit of it was a loss of the profits from selling that food. That might be a little mean of me to say, but may not be far from the truth. He basically lost 2 years worth of profit from selling the food, cause that's how much longer Sierra lived.

I figure if a dog won't eat it (!!!), it CAN'T be good. :laugh:

My vet has at least 300lbs of dry food in her lobby...no wonder she told me she didn't approve of raw diets

She also told me that at least once a year I need to have her diet analyzed to make sure it's balanced properly since I'm feeding raw. I just nodded my head...there's no point in discussing it with some people. As my buddy always tells his son when he gets into trouble:

"I can show you better than I can tell you!"

I agree with all of what you guys say about protein and kidney disease. I have been dealing with it for a long time, not only with animals, but, myself personally. I also own a cat and dog rescue and I am pretty sure that I have dealt with more kidney issues with pets than any of you will see in your lifetime. What you missed in my post from a few days back is that there is a difference between metabolizing the protein in a raw diet with its high moisture content and metabolizing protein in a kibble diet with virtually no moisture in it. Kibble takes much longer to go through a dogs system (something like 18 hours) than raw or even canned food. There is a difference and it does have an effect on the dogs kidneys if not properly used. It can be very difficult to get enough water in to a dog over long periods of time to be able to compensate for the high amount of protein in Evo kibble. This does not mean that a high protein diet is bad for dogs. I am just trying to say that a high protein dry diet can have its drawbacks if not used properly.
As to the person who spoke of Wolves in the wild and their mothers not restricting their protein intake I have to laugh. I know that you read the Pitcairn book, but, have you ever seen Wolves eating in the wild? The pups eat the leftovers after the adults have eaten ALL of the best parts of the kill. The pups do not eat first. They also eat bones because that is all that is left. If you really understand what is going on here you would realize that the pups are not getting the incredibly high-protein diets that you may think. Innova itself does not recommend Evo dry for puppies, just the same as any good nutritionist would tell you. The main reason for this is not the high protein, but, the high fat content which can have a detrimental effect if the pups get too heavy. An overweight puppy is much more likely to have problems with its bones not fusing correctly, displaysia, etc.
The other thing that I found to be funny in one of the posts is the person who talks about how raw, meat only diets are the best because that is what wolves eat in the wild, but, then recommends a dog food with fish in it. Have you ever seen a wolf catch a fish? Me neither! So which is it, the natural way or the human designed food for dogs? I am confused! You also said that grains are bad for dogs. I agree that there is way too much grain in most pet foods, but, I also know that there are a lot of grains in the stomachs of animals that wolves eat, and, the stomach is the first part of a kill that is eaten. Wouldn't that suggest that some grains are a part of the natural diet of wolves?

Steve, what do you mean by properly used?

I feed some fish because of the changes in the modern diet (the red meat part) toward mostly grain-fed meat and away from mostly grass-fed meat. The fat of an animal (say, cattle) that's pasture-fed will contain stored Omega 3 EFAs that the fat of grain-fattened animals won't.

So -- fish oil and fish are adaptations to the modern diet that I do make and that I think are beneficial to offset the changes in the Omega 6/Omega 3 ratio that have been happening in canine (and human) diets.

There was something of a swing a few years ago when prey-model researchers were maintaining that gray wolves (timber wolves) did not devour the stomach and contents of their kill unless they were very short on food.

Then the UC Yellowstone project's long-distance videos showed clearly that this was not true. The stomach of small prey (containing partly-digested grasses, berries, etc.) was devoured along with the rest of the animal, and sometimes even stomachs of large ruminants were eaten, too, except for the first stomach.

The stomachs of large ruminants were abandoned, though, if there was nearby competition for the food.

The pups were fed regurgitated food in the den, and then, as mentioned, when they were older and were brought along to the site of the kill, they did indeed get leftovers.

Interesting.

As far as kibble and kidney disease go, I'd probably take the dog off any dry food as a first step if there was a kidney problem.

Interesting post.