Ok Catherine,

I ask the same question, again. How do you plan to proof your dog in the"Real World"? Can can look at a dog in a trial and tell what it will do in a "real" situation.

I think some of us are missing the point here. I was always told SchH was designed as a breeders tool to test the breed worthiness of the GSD. If the dog reasonably used his/her nose, could be made obedient, & displayed enough protective qualities at a trial to pass, then assuming that the conformation was within the given standard, the dog was declared breed worthy. Some lines would be generally harder/tougher(working dogs)Some lines generally better at another area.

There are all kinds of combinations of factors that go into breeding/training. That being said, look at the differences in the type of dogs in Europe today. I've seen some pretty tough dogs that come from Czech border patrol kennels that would make very strong working dogs in terms of protection, but I'm not so sure they could be around a lot of people, say at a local SchH club trial.

I would say everyone has his/her tastes as to what is the best, or how to train, etc. In part that's what makes BB's like this fun to read.

Catherine:

***The more I watch and learn about it the more it just doesn't seem to be a good test of working ability - its too ritualized. The test is the work.***

What do you mean by "work"? There are all kinds of work a dog can perform. If you mean "work" as gainful employment, then a bad-ass mutt guarding a junk-yard is a working dog in a true sense of the word. Does that make him breed-worthy, though?

Gretta,

"I've seen some pretty tough dogs that come from Czech border patrol kennels that would make very strong working dogs in terms of protection, but I'm not so sure they could be around a lot of people, say at a local SchH club trial."

This is more a function of socialization rather than breeding. These dogs are trained not to be that friendly. Properly socialized they would be fine.

Contrary to popular belief, Schutzhund is not the only protection sport. There are 4 types of ring sports and at least 3 other types of trials based on non-announced protection scenarios and more "realistic" protection scenarios. There are lots of ways to test a dog, this is part of why I don't see a problem doing another type of test. A trial is just a method of proofing a dog. In a lot of cases I hear the folks with no dog entered explaining how much better their dogs are, but they never can seem to demonstrate that the dogs can work. Why are they so afraid to enter?

Richard,
Hummm, I'd always heard that, in general the Czech breeders do a better job of socialization than German. True or not? Maybe not the dogs that are going to BP?
My experience w/Czech dogs is limited, but they do seem to be a tad sharper, tho the ones I've met/owned have all been very social, including my retired K9.

Renee,

I have almost always owned, "dangerous" or "hard" breeds. I have never had a problem with them. I soaialize them a lot. I will take a puppy every where I can and have everybody I see pet them. In almost every case of an "unsocial" dog I have seen I ask how much time they spent getting the dog out in public being socialized. The last one I saw is terrified of everybody, I asked the owner how often he socialized the dog. His comment was this: " I socialized him a lot, we went out 2-3 times a month for about 3 months." Dogs tend to learn by experience, if they have no experience they are going to revert to defensive or avoidance behavior. This type of problem is so much easier to prevent than cure.

Richard, your last post was probably meant for Gretta, but since you invoked my name, I will allow myself to jump in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> . As someone who had the privilege to grow up very close to the Czech border, part of my "education" was visiting the border patrol unit stationed in my town where, as children, we were allowed to watch dogs being trained, which consisted mainly of running an obstacle course (an awesome sight, BTW). We were not shown any bitework, nor were we allowed to come near dogs.

You stated:
***This is more a function of socialization rather than breeding. These dogs are trained not to be that friendly. Properly socialized they would be fine.***

There is a lot of validity in your statement, but I think it goes deeper than just training methods when it comes to border patrol dogs. Gretta brought up a good point: "I've seen some pretty tough dogs that come from Czech border patrol kennels … but I'm not so sure they could be around a lot of people, say at a local SchH club trial."

This has been my personal observation also, and I'm speaking strictly regarding dogs bred for border patrol. Their primary function was to track, chase and bring down human prey, period. I doubt much attention was paid to firm grip development or fight drive (a scared unarmed human running for his life is not likely to fight back). What was needed for this type of work was excellent tracking ability, good stamina, tremendous prey drive, civility or sharpness (i.e., lack of inhibition to bite a human), and general distrust of humans coupled with handler sensitivity.

If you successfully breed this type of dog for decades, how can these traits not become part of breeding? And is it fair to unleash this type of dog on unsuspecting public and hope that with proper socialization they can undo what was so carefully bred into them? (This is just a hypothetical question, Richard, not addressed to you in particular, I usually agree with what you say <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) It just bothers me that a lot of people seem to be fascinated with border patrol dogs without realizing their true nature and often end up paying a high price-I've seen that happen. And to those of you who can handle this kind of dog, all power to you, they are great dogs, just not for everyone.

Renee,
You just described my current Czech male perfectly. I have socialized him vitually everyday of his life, he is now two, and he is not very social at all. Although not dangerous in a strange crowd, he would never seek out a stranger to pet him. He also is a bit sharp and civil and I was told he could never do schutzhund because of it. I love him as a PPD. My wife is looking for a different dog as a walking partner as she is a bit afraid to walk with him as she feels she could not control him if she had too, ie call him off a bite when he is in full fight drive.

Renee,

I was actually talking to Joy.

I guess my point is that properly socialized the dogs aren't going to be dangerous in a crowd. Another thing that I think creates a big problem is owner expectations. Part of what curtisomes brought up. If the owner is afraid that the dog will not behave it probably won't. You defintely have it right, not all dogs are for all people. Owners often get in over their heads by getting dogs they are afraid of.

Come on guys. Your all right. It's both a comination of breeding and socialization that determines the temperment of a dog.

Now Catherine. Every time I think you now have it you go right back to the dark side of the force again. Schutzhund is a standardize test. I compared it to the SAT for college readiness. Can you get a perfect score on it and flunk out of school? Yea but very unlikely. Can you have a litter from two true Schutzhund 3 dogs that have no working ability? Yea but unlikely again.