Thanks folks. We stopped going after that incident. I have a client who took his dogs there too. We both agree he's a pretty big bastard; taking some sadistic pleasure in hurting pups. This guy says he's an obedience judge at dog shows, too.

My wife and I will read up on these things. We've been so upset because it seems like she wants to do good and please us (she looks super sad when she's jumped up and grabbed something off the table, or grabbing something out of the trash when we're not looking) but we've been at a total loss of what to do with her when misbehaving.

In a nutshell, if you learn marker training and start using instant markers (with rewards, praise) when she does a desired action, you'll boost her confidence and your own as you see immediate progress (and you will, as long as you remember that timing is all-important).

Pups *love* to do what earns them happy praise and treats. All they need is to understand what's desired, and that happens when the behavior is instantly marked ("yes!") and rewarded.

http://www.leerburg.com/markers.htm

Matthew: Mike gives some of the best advice around on how to deal with puppies!

Puppies (most of them) are crazy nutcases. That's what makes them so delightful.

It takes skill and patience to raise a puppy and teach it basic manners without over-correcting it and destroying its spirit.

It's up to you to keep her out of trouble in the first place.

Always have her on leash when she's in the house (tie the leash to your belt so she's always with you). If you're right there with her how can she get into the trash or jump up on the table?
If you're not home or too busy to babysit, crate her.

If you do your job right, you won't have to correct her because she won't get into trouble in the first place!

You're absolutely right about that dumb-ass jerk who's passing himself off as a trainer!! I hope he gets hit by a car and dies a slow painful death - torturing puppies, really... can anyone get any sicker than that?!!?!?!!?

Any imbecile off the street can force a dog (let alone a puppy) into cowering submission by beating it up and terrorizing it. It takes far more skill and knowledge to teach the puppy what you want in a way that makes her WANT to please you.
Believe me, there is no greater feeling than to end up with a dog that you've raised and nurtured since puppyhood that just LOVES to work for you and that stands tall and proud when around you

Yes it takes time to read through all the information on this site and to study it, but you're certainly in the right place.

As far as obeying under distractions, don't even bother with that yet! It's just too much to expect from a puppy.
If you feel that she's going to run off after something and that she won't listen to your recall, then don't call her!
Just walk away from the distraction and pull her along with you on leash. Problem solved and you've remained in control of the situation without stressing the poor puppy.

Once you have a solid foundation in your training and she's old enough and mature enough to deal with distractions, then it's time to start testing her and correcting her for blowing you off.
Even then, you gradually build up to it. You don't start with a level 100 distraction on the first month of training an exercise.

You have this dog's whole life ahead of you - don't be in such a hurry. Let her be a carefree happy puppy and don't stress her too much too soon.

It takes time to develop that kind of working relationship with the young dog, but it's so worth it in the end. Good luck.

Oh and one more thing, make sure that you're exciting enough to get your puppy's attention

If you're in a quiet room with nothing going on, she'll be focused on you.

If you move out to the yard where she can hear people and other animals, then you have to make yourself that much more exciting to her so that she's more interested in what you're up to than what's going on around her.

Don't worry if she seems easily distracted. Focus comes with maturity and experience. A big part of how quickly you get there will depend on your own skill as a trainer

Not to bump this but we're still having some trouble. She's very much food motivated, and will do ANYTHING if she knows she's going to be rewarded. I think we've been quite diligent in following the DVD. She also will listen when the prong goes on...she obeys the slow command, sit, down, stay, etc and she's as sweet as can be. If these two things aren't working, she does what she pleases, won't come, "argues" about following up the stairs. Then when we go to get her and guide her upstairs she plops to the ground! I think this is funny because it's like a fightin' move!

So yes we keep her on a leash indoors, but not always on the prong of course. When we're sitting at the dinner table doing whatever she'll jump up and I'll grab her paws shunt her back a little, say "off" and then drop her paws, whereupon the hackles go right up and it's snap snap snap bark growl snap, etc. Then she'll try bite our feet when I make her lay down (I make her lay down and stay when she's being like that instead of going right to the crate) If she's wearing the prong we just don't have these kinds of problems. If ol' girl isn't responding to a standard pop on her leather collar, how much time is appropriate for prong wearing? Because it is indeed power steering for Reagan.

We're not really sure what to do. We keep thinking we're doing something wrong, because it just doesn't seem like it should be taking this long, and being so difficult. It's hard for me not to place the blame on us. I wish you all could see the nightly meltdowns we have with her...

eta: I found a post that talks about some dogs having it on 90% of the time but I didn't know if that was only training/walking and not necessarily around the house.

 Quote: matthew moore

We're not really sure what to do. We keep thinking we're doing something wrong, because it just doesn't seem like it should be taking this long, and being so difficult. It's hard for me not to place the blame on us. I wish you all could see the nightly meltdowns we have with her...

I am sorry to hear you are having nightly meltdowns with her...and no thank you on the "wish you could see it" part. I am currently raising my own crazy pup and my experience is much different than yours. I think having your pup with you at the dinner table is a set up for her, setting her (and you) up to fail. I want to say if you plan to have her present at the dinner table, wait until she is solid on her commands.

I wanted to add that this pup needs some good walking/exercise time in, but believe 1) you don't even bother with walks because she is so unruly or 2) you prong her the whole time and she's more stressed by the walk than it helps...thus raising her stress level in the home.

Raising a pup DOES test your patience. When they are out of the kennel, even tethered to you, they require *a lot* of attention...

I read this thread and hear you whining about your crazy puppy and it's almost as if you want to somehow justify its wearing a prong all the time. Previously in this thread you were given excellent advice about going back to square one with motivational training. If you are not doing this, you are cutting yourself and your pup short.

Oh, and one last reminder. I've read somewhere here that pups wont really "get it all" until 12 months and then it will be about 2 years until they are reliable. If you get a well rounded pup sooner, youre either lucky or have a lot of experience training pups/dogs.

If you want to do the prong 24/7, by all means, have at it...likely you will get a well behaved dog who eventually fears you and does not respect you.

There is a place for a prong IMO, but I do feel bad for your pup if this 24/7 route is the one you take.

Matthew, go back to what Mike Schoonbrood posted and re-read it (portion of it below).

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

Puppies don't understand what they are being corrected for. You need to put down a solid teaching foundation before any corrections should occur. Use food, use toys, use whatever your puppy enjoys to motivationally teach a behavior. Then when the puppy is SOLID and absolutely understands 100% what the commands mean, you can then correct. I personally don't like prongs on a puppy less than 10 months old.

Puppies are never going to be perfect, I tell people all the time that I don't even like doing ANY obedience with puppies because they are going to make lots of mistakes. The key is simply do not let your puppy make mistakes. If you find that your puppy runs away from you when off leash, then don't let the puppy off leash. If your puppy loves food and comes running when theres a hint of food, then always have food when you tell your dog "come". Its simple, and you do not need to crank on a puppy.

Some people like doing obedience young, I'm fine with this, but keep it motivational, there is no need to correct the puppy because they don't have a clue whats going on. At 5 months old puppies are still trying to figure out and explore the world, they don't understand why you're getting angry with them, all you do is hurt your relationship.

Simply put: don't expect too much from your puppy. Guide them, don't force them.

If you read your pup you might see that she is rebelling at too much being expected from her, too many corrections, too much forcing her to do what you want of her, as in making her lay down and stay down. Your pup is still too young to have her laying at the dinner table.

You really are expecting and correcting way too much for her age. Not all dogs are going to be totally compliant and submissive and you're expecting this from a pup who seemingly is trying her best, as you said, to make you happy.

But you're setting her up to fail by doing what you've been doing. If you want her to behave while you're eating, crate her. It's just not fair to expect such obedience from a puppy. As Mike said, they don't understand what they're being corrected for.

Some people say their pup will stay in a down for several minutes. Fine if that's so, but that's their pup. Not all pups are exactly the same or on the exact same time table. There IS NO time table for a dog. They're individuals.

It's like saying your child should be on the same time table as "everyone else's" kid. Not fair, not right.

Michelle--You're comments are specious at best, overly sarcastic at worse. It's quite obvious "what you heard." I don't see how being concerned about a stout 65lb pup snapping on my wife's hand could be seen as whining. Since we're having more night problems, maybe I should have been a little more specific in saying "can we keep the prong on her for a couple hours at night?" Didn't I just say that we're sure we're doing something wrong? It'd make sense that I'd wish someone could see the incidents to tell me what's up! If you were able to glean that I'm such a horrible owner...

Sandy--We keep her in the cage while eating, cooking, cleaning, etc. This is when we're doing bills or whatever...the area is more convenient than other places. And I'm not making her lay down while we're doing it. The only time I have her lay down is to calm down when she's snapping at us. Then when she calms down, which is usually less than a minute, she gets belly scratches :-D

I don't understand how this turned into some idea that I approach my pup with draconian zeal. The only time she gets a correction (outside of training) is when she's snapping or whatever. We do the little pop thing when we're marking the down/stay command that's on the video. If she's jumping up she gets redirected, not like I'm throwing her to the ground and yelling at her. And that's where it gets confusing because from there it turns into a huge issue with her. There was another post I had where I said I'd shout to break the snapping up, but I stopped because the suggestion and reasoning were good...so now I talk really calm. I just said that we're following the DVD pretty closely with motivational training.

But you're right, I think the times when we have the least (or really if I think about it, no)trouble is when she gets a walk before I go to work, and a 2nd walk after my wife gets home.