Quote: lance_wright

I would agree with carol that if they are not chasing the hell out of a rag at this point its a big red flag.

huh? I didn't say that in this thread.....although I like to see pups that chase and attach themselves, there is no reason that you cannot bring drive out also.

I am in full agreement with Mike and Angelique....if you are not agreeable to the situation, then shop elsewhere.

I think puppies are the hardest, because you never know what your really going to get as an "end" product.

 Quote: carol boche

I think puppies are the hardest, because you never know what your really going to get as an "end" product.

And starting with a bad "start" product won't get you the right "end" product either

Absolutely agree. If you are not confident with what you are looking at or have even picked out, then that is a strike against you before your even out of the box......

The more I read about imprinting and early puppy conditioning, the more I realize that this is an aspect of the buyer / breeder relationship that has to be mapped out in advance.

I'm thinking more in terms of controlled cat, kid, early stage environmental experiences, than in drive building, although there may be an element of that too.

rgds, andrew may

Bottom line is, you MUST trust your breeder. If you don't, walk on, like Mike said. FWIW, I think it sux that the person basically lied to you though. Does Angelique maybe still have pups available?

I'm sorry, Andrew, "controlled cat" ? HAHAHA. I understand what you are saying, but I believe there was a controlled cat at my breeders. My pup, however, has just a *bit* (heh) of prey drive...this seems to override any puppy baby days with controlled cat and my slow and steady introduction. We are working on it though. Social/Environmental will eventually win, IMO, and that may very well be related to the fact that when he was a babe there was a controlled cat. ??? But 8 weeks to 8 months is pretty critical as well. (IE: what I am doing now)

Deep subject. Again, gotta trust the breeder.

For us we did nothing to built their drives we walk in their runs and they attached to our pants like fly on S..t, all we did is brought them to the usual environment that they will be introduced to, wood floors, tile,carpet,hearing sounds that goes on in a normal setting.Allowing them to explore things,everything that comes with a family, screaming kids,plates being dropped,vaccum ect..all the darn things that happen in our home will happen in their new homes.We also took them for car rides. BUT as far as what they are made of,they showed us that on their own. We did not have them chase any rags,we knew they would. They all got to go into a bird bath full of water and we did not introduce them to it, they simply decided on their own to take over the yard and everything in it.By choice. They had no fear of anything, they came like that..
They love people and are very confident. We believe we have great pedigrees and got lucky.
We do have a female left and she is pretty amazing, I don't know that i can let her go..
Lance, I think if you really want a pup out off that specific breeding you should wait, if it was me I would have never even entertained the thought of buying one from the mess of leasing a female and having her move around like that..A female in stress will not show her pups how to handle things in a calm way or show confidence.Not something I like, JMO.
The dam has a huge impact on how the pups become, not just their human counter parts.

 Quote: lance_wright

I bought a pup from a person that said her dog was to be bred and then she was going to have the pups welped and raised by some very experienced dog people, this person became attached to the pups and the child picked a favorite, the dogs never went to the people with experience. Now at six weeks old they have not been held rigoresly(sp) they do not show alot of drive, they are sensitive to human touch, they have not been exposed to swimming or water, they are left to them selvs all day untill an adult gets home, i'm sure that after a long day they are not real interested in spending the rest of the night walking the dogs out side and initializing some prey. If the deal was not kept as described and the pups were not up to where they should be at this time what would you do and think???????? PS THESE ARE WORKING DOGS NOT CUTE LITTLE PLAY MATES…

 Quote: lance_wright

I will be more clear, At this age those dogs should be outsidr running around, chasing a rag or something to stimulate their prey drive, while running around they should be stimulated into the water (not forced or thrown) something like following mother. When you touch them they should feel comforable not alleanated(sp) thanks

 Quote: lance_wright

Its a story to tell, basiclly the pro's rented the bitch,after a time the bitch and the pups were supposed to go and it never happened. The breeders aranged the breeding with a grandchild, it was to be a 2-3 breeding, all was well untill lately. It appears the deal went south. The lines are very sought after, maybe not this time????? we'll see

 Quote: lance_wright

Mike, your use of the word moron is extreme.... For all you know the pro dog people who leased this bitch may be the one that has taught you how to be a better helper at some of the east coast decoy camps. At this point the lines mean nothing, only that the deal has changed and the pups have not been raised as said to be. I think the option to wait another week see how they do at testing and then decide. I would agree with carol that if they are not chasing the hell out of a rag at this point its a big red flag.

Lance, I am not going to get into a match with you here. 1st... My dog was "not" leased. It was never said to me the pups would not or could not be whelped with me. You placed a deposit on this litter a year before they were born. These pups are exposed to noises, different flooring surfaces, shaker bottles, etc. etc. You are saying they are not showing drive because I drove them out to training at 3 wks old to try and make you happy, so you could see them. They got there after hot drive and they were sleepy. They did not show fear of their surroundings they slept though it. You expected them to be running around. Again, they were 3 wks old.
Yes, the pups are in runs while I am at work, I have to work. But the runs are full on stimuli, be it shaker bottles, chew toys, things to jump on and pull, etc. etc. The pups are let out of their kennels before I even let myself in the house.
I simply can't believe you have posted these terrible things on this board. Lance after seeing this, I WANT to give you back your deposit. I admit this is my first litter, but I have done everything possible to make sure they are exposed to everything and anything. They are very well taken care of. Lance you were always welcome to come check on them, you only did once when they weren't even a week old.
pictures of those that care to see can be seen here. I asure you they are all fine well adjusted puppies. I have done my best, and I am not ashamed of how they have turned out...at all...
Sincerely,
Cindy

http://www.flickr.com/photos/psadawg/

From the pictures they look like nice healthy puppies to me.

I think sometimes we can get a bit carried away with our expectations and desires and we put too much stock in small details and blow it up to be something it's not. I'm not suggesting that's what happened here but it's always worth having a look at yourself before casting judgement on others and talking clearly and calmly to resolve issues.

I have done this in the past where something I was really looking forward to didn't quite meet my idea of what it should have been (Women will know far more about this than men ;-) ). We all have a lot of drive for the things we love in life and there's nothing wrong with that but we may need to be brought to heel a few times.

We take ourselves too seriously when we should be relaxing and enjoying what we have while we have it.

Not really much point to my post other than the first line of text.

Cheers

John

Hi Cindy,
I'm glad you posted, it was a good reminder that there's 2 sides to every story (especially on the internet) Your pups look cool and also look like they're well adjusted and having fun. Good luck with them,
AL

What a good looking litter......I notice they are "attaching" themselves just fine to the person in the kennel.....bright eyes and lovely expressions.

Hmmmmm, Lance, maybe you should go visit them more often as Cindy said.

Nice looking litter Cindy.