Jamie: it sounds like the prong corrections are working. The goal is just to be able to pet him while he eats without him growling at you.
Sounds like you're doing it right

I would definitely not use a choke collar to give a jerk-type correction. It's nowhere near as effective as a prong collar correction and all a choke collar will do is bruise your dog's neck muscles.

The only place for a choke collar is to take the air away from a dog (by gentle lifting the leash straight up and holding it there, NO POPS!) for a dog that gets too wound up and hectic when corrected with a prong.

So definitely stick with the prong collar

And if he doesn't want to take his face out of his food bowl, that's great. If he stops his growling, you've done enough and you can go back to gently petting him.


Oh and incidentally, have you looked into feeding a raw diet? Quality food (meat-based, without grains, fillers and other crap) will allow him to grow slowly and steadily. It won't make him fat, or make him feel starved because there's no usable protein in it like most kibbles

Here's some great reading on raw feeding if you're interested; I can guarantee you that this is the best thing you could possibly feed your dog:

http://kaiserhaus.com/rawdiet.htm (Cindy's article)

http://www.leerburg.com/diet.htm (Ed's article)

http://www.leerburg.com/diet2.htm (Example of a one week menu on raw)

http://rawfed.com/myths/ (The myths of raw feeding)


Good luck with everything, Jamie.
Do you happen to have any pictures of your puppy? *hinthint*

No, he isn't dominant in any other way. He is also submissive to both the other dogs.

I still feel it's a big deal - he will be in his crate with something 'good' (like a piece of pork ribs) and if I come near it's alright...I can say "good dog" it's alright - but sometimes he will just lunge at me barking and growling like he'd kill over it... I KNOW this is not good - but, like I said, the initial corrections made it much worse.

I wish I could go back and start over but in the end he will still be fed in his dog run.

BTW - I have no problem taking toys from his mouth, using treats to train or even giving all 3 of them a cookie at the same time. (but I don't push it!)

My Chow is a very agressive, protective animal. So much that many people suggested I get rid of him. I didn't, worked through it and he's manageable. I took advice from many people on the forum and a behaviorist.

Bruno started guarding at about 4 months. One of the things that really stuck with me, I believe from Ed, is there's no reason to bother the dog while it's eating, the pack leader doesn't do this in the wild. Your dog may see it as you harrassing him. I was told feed in the crate, give him food by hand, put the bowl in a different room, use a different bowl, don't feed him for a day or 2 and ignore the behavior etc.

I tried these methods for many months, not just for a few weeks then got fed up and they did not work. Feeding in the crate, he would attack to the door when I would go to open it. Feeding by hand lasted for 3 months and he showed no improvement. Use a different bowl, did the same thing. Feed him in a different room and do not enter the room, he would guard half of the room.

I put his bowl around the corner near a short wall so people could not walk by the bowl itself but he was still around people so he wasn't isolated. We give him a sit, stay while we place the bowl and released him when we were clear. If he growled we didn't acknowledge him at all. After 20 minutes, we call him away and while he's distracted, someone picks up his bowl and that's it for the day. If he growled any other time he was corrected but while the bowl was down and he was eating, he was ignored (not blindly). Over time he realized eating was not going to be a tramatic event and his growling slowed. After he stopped growling I started sitting in a chair in the area while he was eating. He'd stop and growl and I'd ignore it and just sit there. I also found saying anything to him made him worse so I'd carry on a conversation with family members and he seemed to understand I wasn't there to bother him and stopped. Now I can sit right next to him while he eats and he'll grumble at first, then pay me no mind. People can walk by him and he may still grumble a little but only for a few seconds and without teeth baring. Most days I get no growling. I used to not be able to give him treats. Now, I can hand feed him (still can't talk to him or praise him for good behavior) and he will seldom utter a sound. I never let my guard down, always expect the worst but follow the strict protocol and he continues to improve. I would never recommend him as a family dog. Had we know this when we picked him out he would be with someone else. We got what we got and have stuck to it and learned him and it has paid off.

I hope this is helpful. If this info is wrong I'm sure 10 people will tell me but it will not change the fact that this IS WHAT WORKED FOR ME.

Good luck, it ain't easy.

Thanks Eric

I think you are 100% correct.

I also think my biggest problem is me! I have a built in need to correct behaviour I think is wrong - and it's hard to ignore the guarding.

Lee

Eric - BRILLIANT!

Just goes to show how different each dog and each situation can be. Sometimes the best solution isn't a tried and true program, but a customized one that you model after carefully reading your own dog. Bruno sounds like in incredible challenge (from this and other posts) and he's lucky to have such a patient, dedicated, thoughtful and fair handler as you (a lot of dogs like him don't get such a chance...).

Cheers to you! and a great post.

~Natalya

It's definately not the typical dog/owner relationship. I talk to people at work etc. and most of them tell me how THEY would have Bruno behaving in no time "I'd beat him until he broke!" is their answer. I ask them if they've ever dealt with a dog like this "Oh yeah, I groom - or - my folks have - or I saw on TV this one time". At their expense, not the dogs, I'd love to see this played out and the end result so they could see the long term problems they would create. I really think the most effective and difficult part in all of this is learning your dog, mostly because if he's still a pup, he hasn't completely become himself yet and is still changing. Someone in another post mentioned the gamble you take when picking out a puppy and maybe should wait until the dog is 9-12 months. That sounds like good advice although you miss the cutest times.

Anyway, thanks for having me here. I've learned allot in the last year and love being able to return the favor even if it's seldom.

Lee, why do you feel the need to mess with him while he's eating? I'm always curious about this subject because i always think of that stupid fake hand some rescue agencys and shelters use to determine if a dog is "safe" or food aggressive, 2 of mine would not do well with that crap and they're great dogs.

With my dogs, i make them sit, put down their food, and leave them alone for the 1-2 minutes it takes to eat. I'll never know if they're food aggressive because i leave them alone for those 4 minutes a day. I just don't see the problem, feed him in the crate,
AL

This was the advice Ed gave me on the subject.

"Ricky - you have good reason to be concerned.

1- Feed him in the dog crate

2- Knock off feeding him raw hides. Throw whats left away.
Not only are they not that good for the dog they are a TRIGGER for aggression and unless you are willing to fight him then you should not be using them. Dogs dont need rawhides.

3- If you want to give him something to chew on - let it be a beed knuckly bone in the crate. Then dont reach in to take it away. Open the gait - call him out and takke it away. If he tries to bring it out with him tell him to DROP IT - if he doesn - nail him in the head (HARD) with the crate door as he comes out - or leave him in the crate.

You may beed the DVD I did titled DEALING WITH DOMINAT AND AGGRESSIVE DOGS http://leerburg.com/301.htm"

I had quite a few dominance issues myself but understanding my dog more and changing a few simple things I did stopped it happening. He still is a dominant dog but one I understand now and wouldn’t change.

 Quote: al curbow

Lee, why do you feel the need to mess with him while he's eating? I'm always curious about this subject because i always think of that stupid fake hand some rescue agencys and shelters use to determine if a dog is "safe" or food aggressive, 2 of mine would not do well with that crap and they're great dogs.

I've seen those hands too, they're hilarious!
I know their heart's are in the right place, but those things are just silly...
Oscar'd let me put MY hand in his bowl - but he might bite the plastic one!

~Natalya

hahah i can picture that.