Quote: brad . martin

Well let's see... In the Basic OB video it is mentioned that when a correction is given to a dog it must be immediately followed up with a "good dog" once the dog corrects its behavior.

How is this an example of D-C-D? To me it sounds more like drive-compulsion-reward.

 Quote: brad . martin

The dog is put into drive, corrected for non-compliance, and then put into drive again...

How do you do this? Does this mean that you build drive, and then give a "sit", for example, and if the dog doesn't sit, you correct, and then when the dog sits after the correction, you go into drive again?

Drive-Compulsion-Reward is an acurate description of what I mentioned, yes. But, this is what I mean when I say that certain priciples are similar or alike in dog trianing yet the techniques may be different. What you quoted from me at the top of your last post would NOT be an example of Drive-Compulsion-Drive, that is correct. Just a demonstration that after a dog is corrected it should never be left "hanging" to linger on what just happened. What happens after a correction has a lasting affect on a dog's mind, so this knowledge should be utilized efficiently for its application in training.

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How do you do this? Does this mean that you build drive, and then give a "sit", for example, and if the dog doesn't sit, you correct, and then when the dog sits after the correction, you go into drive again?

Pretty much that's what you do (I'm thinking of the SMALL nutshell again). Before you try it though I suggest seeing it in action. It all happens very fast. The dog is put into drive and when the drive is highest the toy is quickly moved up and the dog told "sit", at the same time the leash is popped to the rear of the handler and when the dog sits the toy is dropped.

The principle is that the dog is in drive and corrected for non-compliance or compliance that was not fast enough ("compliance" being an immediate response to a command). The toy going up directs the dog's head up, and the leash going backward (relative to the handler) will cause the dog's weight to shift backwards after the pop, this helps mold the dog into a sit position. If the drive training foundation has been done well the dog will be right back in drive and staring at the prey item, the item is dropped to give the dog drive satisfaction for a job well done.

By the time OB training becomes a staple in the drive work, the dog should already be able to be put into high drive, and able to focus. If not you run the extreme risk of ruining the dog's drive level by adding compulsion to a dog's training before it is ready and unable to understand what will result after compliance to a cue preceeded by compulsion.

 Quote: brad . martin

 Quote:

How do you do this? Does this mean that you build drive, and then give a "sit", for example, and if the dog doesn't sit, you correct, and then when the dog sits after the correction, you go into drive again?

Pretty much that's what you do (I'm thinking of the SMALL nutshell again). Before you try it though I suggest seeing it in action. It all happens very fast. The dog is put into drive and when the drive is highest the toy is quickly moved up and the dog told "sit", at the same time the leash is popped to the rear of the handler and when the dog sits the toy is dropped.

I hate to be picky but this subject seems very important...and interesting! You say the toy is dropped upon the sit and after the correction. I thought that the drive building was moving the prey item around. So, when you say that after the correction, that the dog is back in drive while staring at the immoble prey object, I am confused. I thought you would build drive, say "sit", pop leash, and after the correct sit, go back into drive building (i.e. moving the prey again.) But you say, and this is what Flinks does in the DVD, that you should drop the item, not go into drive building. So, why does Bernard call it D-C-D, when it is actually D-C-Reward?

P.S. I think you have a very good grasp of both training methods, and I highly respect your opinions on this subject. Please don't take offence at me trying to deconstruct and reconstruct this method, I think it is awesome and fun, but I am new to training and very interested in the dog's mind at this point. This is why I am trying to fully understand what's goin on here...

Rick
The idea of building drive then giving the "sit" command and holding the prey item above the dogs head is to teach the dog that it has to control itself in drive. The dog learns that focus on the prey item gets him the reward not jumping. This leads to competetion heeling where the dog is to be focused on your face. By this time the dog knows that focus while heeling gets him the reward.

This is where drive compulsion drive comes in. You put the dog in drive, correct for inattention or lack of focus, the back in drive.

hope this makes sense.

 Quote: trevor morris

This is where drive compulsion drive comes in. You put the dog in drive, correct for inattention or lack of focus, the back in drive.

So when you say to put the dog "back in drive" after the correction, you must mean that you start the game again by moving the prey item around.

However, you probably don't mean that. I think what you mean is that you would correct the dog, and then drop the ball when the dog corrects it's behavior. And I am saying that this is not Drive-Compulsion-Drive, but rather, Drive-Compulsion-Reward.

I really don't care what the right answer is, I just want to know whether you move the prey item after the correction, or drop the prey item after the correction. Can anyone that?

Rick,

Your mind is on the right track, good for you! Very good question! You see, the dog IS in drive when it is sitting (for example) and staring at the toy, provided your foundation drive work has been done correctly. Most people don't realize this, but if you have the videos or the capability to watch a dog working in this manner you can really see it if you know what you are looking at. Think about a good B&H, the dog is in drive during this exercise even though it is not chasing the helper; same sort of idea. By the time OB becomes a part of drive work the dog should be able to control itself while still in drive, like Trevor had mentioned.

Dropping the prey item for the dog gives the dog "drive satisfaction". -- You are rewarding the dog for accepting the compulsion, complying to the command, and then going back into drive. If the correction is too hard and the dog shuts down after the correction then yes you would definately have to start the chasing again, but make sure you modify your correction too.

When OB is first introduced to the drive this is the sequence, the quick 1-2-3; later when the dog's proficiency improves it will have to either focus longer, perform more behaviors, or chase the prey item again (this is where the handler would move the toy again). Drive training is like any other training, in the sense that you start off with baby steps, then build, and build, and build...

 Quote: brad . martin

...Think about a good B&H, the dog is in drive during this exercise even though it is not chasing the helper; same sort of idea.

BAM! There it is! I thought you all were talking about this, but I had to make sure. Great example!

So, I will correct and keep the item still until she fixes her behavior, then drop it to give "drive satisfaction." What is the difference between this and the correction phase of Ed's training model?

Well actually the correction should "fix" the behavior. Moving the item upwards helps to mold a sitting pose and puts that last spark of motion into the item to bring back the drive. The focus while in drive is what gets the dog its drive satisfaction.

The difference between this and a basic / regular OB correction phase training model is that the dog is working in drive. Hmm how can I paint this picture?...

In basic OB once at the correction phase the dog is told to (example) "sit" and says, "ho-hum maybe next time". then gets corrected and goes, "ok boss"! In drive when the dog gets corrected they should be saying, "THANK YOU, SIR; MAY I HAVE ANOTHER!?!"

 Quote: brad . martin

Well actually the correction should "fix" the behavior. Moving the item upwards helps to mold a sitting pose and puts that last spark of motion into the item to bring back the drive.

When you say "fix" the behavior, do you mean that it causes the dog to sit perfectly the first time you teach the sit while in drive?

Well that's kind of a trick question. What is a "perfect sit"? Basically the correction teaches the dog that he has to sit even though he is really reved up. In the first steps of this training that's all you need. The dog is learning that sit means: sit-now; and as a result is rewarded with drive satisfaction.

The golden rule in all training is to reward the behaviors that you want. So, if the dog is in a lazy sit with his hip stuck out to one side then that should not be rewarded, if it's not what you want. As a trainer you should have a clear picture in your mind of what your end result will look like so that it can be instantly rewarded when it happens. So, "fixing" the behavior should be a way of modifying how the dog reacts to your command in order to produce the result that you are looking for. To me "sit" just means put your butt on the ground and keep your back legs tucked in, no matter where you are, what you are doing, or where I am (relative to my dog). Does that help??