Interesting and good post Carol.

I'm going to add a cat to the mix, since it seems appropriate too...(she *thinks* she's a dog) But I've always fed the cat in the morning, first thing, and it stayed that way when we got the pup. I thought about this and figured it was appropriate, as SHe holds (HELD) a higher rank than him...in the beginning. It is so very clear and obvious he ranks higher than her now...(in my thoughts too...) but I still feed her early in the morning. Will this action just fester his "facination" with her? He's doing fairly well with "leave it" (the cat) but I do wonder about the feeding thing.

Okay, is it possible to have two male dogs and neither one is the top dog? Or, I should say, they are each top dog at different times in different situations. Chance is the first to be petted, and he makes that very clear to Beau. However, Beau is the first one to chase and catch the ball, and he makes that very clear to Chance. It seems they have worked things out between them and they are satisfied.

In my mind, those are the only two significant areas where rank would come into play – affection and play time. As for feeding, they are both fed separately in their crates, and I really have no set pattern for whose bowl is set down first. I don’t think I even think about it.

They play-bite/fight like crazy outside until they have had enough, but I have to say that at any given time, either one will initiate it and either one will walk away.

Should I thank my lucky stars I have no real issues, or at 2 years old are they just coming into their own and the problems could start?

 Quote: alex corral

I did a search and came up with conflicting answers, so maybe I will get a solid answer or at least RECENT conflicting advice

A friend has a really submissive female he's had for 2 yrs. She is the only dog and is nicely trained. They adopted a younger male who is more dominant. The male seems to bully the female around & she's a bit confused. Should he let the male establish his role as alpha (among the dogs) or should he re-inforce the female as alpha? I'm not sure what to tell him here. She's not an alpha dog at all, but she has earned her keep in a sense. What do you guys think? From the search, I've heard from "let them sort it out" to "the owner is alpha and chooses the next in line"

Great topic Alex. I think that even if the young male is dominant you only allow a small amount of them sorting it out because he needs to learn to control himself around all dogs and that includes the ones he lives with. I don't think you can pick who is Alpha, if she's submissive and he's dominant thats what it is. But just like you as the real top dog treat her fairly, he can too.

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I found this situation particularly interesting because, I will probably be in the same spot in a year or so. I'm searching for a male puppy who will most likely be bigger and more dominant than my female. She is a very dog submissive girl too.

Just my opinion here, I know there are exceptions to everything, but this is the combination I would like Alex. Andy is always respectful and tolerant of females but especially an older one. We brought home a 7yr old English Setter in May prepared to follow Ed's rules for introducing a new dog because this was going to be the first dog we hadnt got as a puppy. From the minute she came in the house there was nothing even close to any tension with our other dogs. Boxers are generally playful and sociable ,I bet with just the way you are going to raise a puppy the odds will be with you having good results.

Thanks Steve!! I agree. From what I know my girl so far, I think she will give up the reigns as soon as the pup is probably her size, maybe 6-8 mos or so *IF* he turns out as I hope. I guess I'm real lucky in that aspect. We'll see how my friend's dogs progress. It's actually really cool stuff to be watching and learning.

Carol, thanks for adding that last comment to your post. That makes it really clear on how the pack structure IS vs. how, we as humans, would've wanted it to be. Very cool to read that.

Very interesting topic - lots of good input here...

I would also like to ask, from others experience, about bringing on a new male puppy into a household with an already dominant adult male... Our boy will be over 3 (he's recently altered, but still quite dominant) by the time we are ready for another pup. I would very much like another male, though I'm concerned there will be constant struggles for rank in this situation and I will NOT live in A) a house full of tension/aggression or B) a situation where I have to keep both dogs separated for life.

A female of ANY type (dom/submis) would be just peachy with Oscar, but I know it would be a LOT more work to get him to live comfortably with another male. Would trying to choose a submissive male pup help, and just reinforce Oscar's status as top dog, or is it all in our training with the both of them as to how they will get along? If we ended up with a pup that got more dominant with age, and a pack order shift was iminent, would it likely end in a big brawl (or constant brawls) or could hierarchy change in an afternoon then everything just go forward with the new status? Getting a puppy is difficult because so much can change as they mature - if we got a male, I'd want to leave it intact until at least 2...

*Oscar is a companion and a house dog and I would want any new addition to be the same, so near 100% peacefull coexistance is the ultimate goal - I don't want to end up having to keep them separated...

Jan, I'd say you have 2 great boys on your hands, maybe they get along so well precisely becuase they're brothers (great work raising littermates, BTW). May I ask if they're altered? At 2, I'd think most issues, if you were going to have them, would have arisen already, especially if they are both intact. Either way though, it seems like they have a good relationship with each other, and with you, and can work things out without fighting... good dogs.

Thanks all,
~Natalya

 Quote: michele mcatee

I've always fed the cat in the morning, first thing, and it stayed that way when we got the pup. I thought about this and figured it was appropriate, as SHe holds (HELD) a higher rank than him...in the beginning. It is so very clear and obvious he ranks higher than her now...(in my thoughts too...) but I still feed her early in the morning. Will this action just fester his "facination" with her? He's doing fairly well with "leave it" (the cat) but I do wonder about the feeding thing.

Michele,

Even though my dog, too, ranks higher than the cats now, I keep up the bluff and continue to feed the cats first. I just never wanted a situation to develop where the dog ever thought he'd be able to push the cats around. I don't, however, have a cat-aggressive dog so this makes it a lot easier.

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Would trying to choose a submissive male pup help

For myself this would be the tough part Natalya. We have a friend who has always kept intact males in the same house but she can pick out submissive vs dominant in a litter a lot better then me. Thats why we choose male and female and a combination like rott and lab or rott and E. Setter. When I did have two males in the house I waited until one was almost 10. The older one wasnt submissive so much as just so Indifferent to other dogs I could get away with a little dominance. We created rank problems with a boxer we had and I dont ever want to do that again.

And thank you Steve - I've talked with one experienced RR breeder who seemed to think that picking the nature of the pup when still very young WAS possible, but only for well trained and quite experienced eyes (ie, not mine! :grin. Whichever sex we choose, I will definitely be finding a breeder whom I trust, and one who can help guide us through this - they may even need to meet Oscar!

On the one hand, I want to be confident and tell myself I can make it work, be firm and unwavering as a pack leader, just like Kacie, but on the other hand, this IS a new experience for me and I don't want to risk setting myself up for likely failure and spending a lot of time and money on a new pup that ends up not really working out (through my own fault, not just the dogs)... that would break my heart.

~Natalya