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Not coincidentally, when you breed for function, one seems to get a crisp, sharp, beautifully utilitarian asthetic anyway. I'm thinking of our latter day worker bees: ACDs, Kelpies, Malinois, GSDs, Border Collies, Stocky block-headed Labs.

I agree with Alex and Steven and think a working lines GSD is WAY better looking than any showline dog.

To me structure is very high on the priority list for a working dog. I want a total dog. A dog with awsome drive is a must, but if he will have to be retired at a young age due to poor structure after such a great amount of time spent training.... not good enough. I have no GSD experience, but I would question the showline structure for a working dog anyway. Just doesn't look right to me. I may be WAY off though.

NOw in the case of labs, the "Stocky block-headed Labs" are not the ones that excel in field work (generally). When I think of a stocky block headed lab, I think "breed split" and "show dog". Not saying a field lab can't have a nice head, just that they don't breed for such things (just like you don't breed for that with a working GSD), and stockiness is not generally an asset for speed and agility for a hard days hunting.

I am happy to be involved in a breed that is not too popular and is working very hard at NOT undergoing the breed split of many other "working breeds". Tough, but I think they are doing better than many other breeds.

Only my opinion, FWIW

Would you consider the Kirschental lines an exception to this? ie dogs bred for confirmation and work? Any other exceptions?? Thanks.

Michael (West), I think reputation is definitely a plus, I think too that SOME people look at websites and buy just from that, pictures and long ass comments on how great their dogs are and how they can all be police dogs and how they sell to Law Enforcement(that's a popular one).

For me, forget the titles, I have seen plenty of dogs with titles I would not buy an off spring from.Titles are great but you still have to look at the whole picture.You have small breeders that produce very nice dogs that will never be titled because they were sold to people that don't want to do any sports( or don't have a Club near) but simply wanted a healthy and confident dog. You'll never hear about those dogs yet these dogs are far nicer then some I see with titles..

Hello Mike
Perhaps i did not put it right. Say i want to eventually have a try at Schutzhund with my Pup when he gets older, what i want to know is does the Pup have to be evaluated as to his temperment by a club or such before he can comense to the next stage of the sport

What i find interesting though is that Yoschy von der Dollenwiese is a great grandson to a Kirschental dog. But then again, in 1978 showline dogs were ALOT different than what we see in showlines today. What they are producing today I do not know, but I will bet that they are not producing the tough hard dominant dogs that some of the better working line breeders are.

Steve, yes I would say its a good idea to have a good IPO club trainer evaluate him. If I lived up your way I'd take a look myself. But most of the stuff you van do with a pup at this age is stuff that would be good for him regardless of whether or not he goes on to do sport later, so I wouldn't wait for an evaluation to work with him, but an evaluation will help you guage where he is and how far he might go. GSD pups tend to not really shine until they are over a year old though, so don't put too much stock in what you're told about a puppy, unless ofcourse they say "wow this pup is exceptional!!" in which case do listen

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and stockiness is not generally an asset for speed and agility for a hard days hunting.

Thought it might have to do with the cold water; the whole lower surface area thing. Maybe not!

Back in the 1980s i visted a Pigeon Fancier in Belgium and he was also a German Shepherd Breeder, Me. not knowing a lot about GSDs when i saw this Dog with his back end nearly on the ground i said to this fellow has the dog something wrong with it
He said No, that is how it is and he is a World Champion, In Pens was about 5 Bitches So i guess this Dog was of the Show Breed of GSDs, I have never seen a dogs rear end so low to the ground since that time, incidently the dog followed him around. the Females were not so friendly, but he was a real beauty
My Pup Fred is nothing like him in stance, i guess the working line is somewhat different shape, but it is really interesting the amount i have learned in the last 6 months of owning such a Dog

Show line:



Work line:



Notice the showline has to look sloped like that when stacked for a show? Makes em look pretty when they stand all sleek etc. Ofcourse to produce this type of dog also means producing dogs that aren't as pretty in show, so the roached backs can get very excessive in some non-show-quality dogs and the hocks can get very low to the ground... they are rejects, and physically incorrect, but they have to be produced in order to produce a dog that is show-quality, which as it happens is also physically incorrect. I have a showline dog and I am glad that he is pretty normal for a showline, and does have a good temprement and decent nerves and moderate drive... but he is in the minority from all the showlines I've seen.

In the work line (that's Gildo vom Korbelbach) you will see a straighter back and at his butt the legs go straight down rather than slope backwards starting at the middle of his back (which is why they want the roached back, so the slope can start mid-back, where as the american show dogs have a straight back and over angulation in the rear so they practically walk on their hocks).

Yes Mike, the Showdog is the one he had, i can see him in my mind now, it was the first time i had ever seen one