Oh goodness, I just read this; where on EARTH did that "biting out of submissivness" come from!? thats just scary; what a strange trainer...

 Quote: Denise Skidmore

If you don't want to remain friends, there are plenty of threats to go around. Landlord doesn't want to loose home insurance if the insurance company found out there's a dog with a bite history on the property.

Of course, there are nicer ways to make them aware of their danger without threatening to call personally, but it's a risky business.

well, they have been good friends lately, though every time i hear something has happened it makes me angry, i find it upsetting, and i can't respect the way they keep their dogs.

i've no interest in getting the landlord involved - they move the end of the month, and i'm actually going to be renting the place - signing the lease tonight - the landlord is already prejudiced against GSDs, i'm not having them start to get upset about dogs on the property.

i'm goinng to scream groundwork at her until she can't stand it anymore....

Print out a couple of articles, maybe? Highlight sentences in bold, like "the pack leader PROTECTS her dogs....."

 Quote: connie sutherland

Print out a couple of articles, maybe? Highlight sentences in bold, like "the pack leader PROTECTS her dogs....."

that's the plan. though i already feel like a broken record on that point. maybe seeing it written down, and by someone w/expertise, will click for them.

it just bothers me so much - i know she has a lot of shame about the dogs behaviour, and is embarrassed by what happens, but her 'stepping up' seems to be lacking so much. she's not working now (got mat leave b/c the babies were born) and isn't going back to work, how hard is it for someone who's staying at home w/no children or other pets to put a bit more effort in? errrrr!

edit: and mary, i know! i may not know much, but come on! it scares me that she thinks that. she thinks people should react to my dogs the same way people react to her dogs, b/c teagan has been aggressive - but i don't give her opportunities, i don't let my dogs out unsupervised, i don't knowingly put my dogs into situations that have resulted in bites before and not do anything to prevent another bite from occuring. she doesn't get the difference, perhaps through wilful ignorance, but it scares me. i'm not blinkered about who teagan is, but she seems to have a lot of wishful thinking about what rocky and trixie are.

Jennifer, I feel for you, but you have gone above and beyond the call of duty here. Let's face facts: these people don't want to change their behavior and don't even really seem to care what the dogs do or what could happen to them as a result of these incidents.

It's been said here a million and one times, there are some people who should JUST NOT own dogs. This scenario seems to be the definition of that statement. If I were in your shoes I would now be taking steps to protect people from these dogs. Contact the animal control office where they are moving to and inform them of the situation. At least then the animal control will know what they are dealing with.

Besides, if I were judging solely from this thread, I would say that it sounds like part of the motivation your friends' relocation is to further avoid the responsibility for dog ownership by now providing "a yard to run in" and escape the reputation that they have built in their old neighborhood with the community, the police, and bylaw.

i agree - they shouldn't own dogs. it is nice to save dogs, and to help them out of bad situations, but i don't think they are able to provide these dogs w/the living situation they need. i wonder if i could get their current animal control file reference number....

and the thing that kills me - muzzles, prongs, training tools that should help protect people or have them get through to the dogs just don't interest them. they walk trixie on a nutrix collar (whatever the spelling is) which is a harness in the halti/gentle leader school.

i talked to my friend last night - and i remembered that the pregnant female had already given birth. i asked if that was the same GSD female targetting trixie....big shock, it is the same dog!!!! i told her they need to keep their dogs away from a female w/a young litter, that she's going to be protective. sigh. apparently, they are trying to make sure rocky and trixie aren't out at the same time as the other dogs (despite the 'yay running w/a pack' statement....ummmm....) but that there have been a few incidents of overlap and oopsies.

actually - and it pains me to admit this, really it does - one of the big reasons they're moving to the country as they see this as a stepping stone to getting their own place out there and running horse boarding (my friend rides) and having a dog boarding facility.

there is an empty garage on the property they're at now that the owner has said they can convert into dog kennels. in the meantime, they are planning on boarding dogs (assuming business, obviously) in the house and just keeping their dogs upstairs (though as the upstairs is open concept, i'm not clear on what means they'll be employing to do so). she knows my opinion on dog parks and interaction w/strange dogs, but i think she sees it as a function of both of my dogs personalities, they both think it's so important their dogs be playing and interacting w/strange dogs at parks etc.

in some ways, that motivation for moving is almost worse than the 'escape the reputation they've built'. i'm sure the bigger yard is a motivator for them as well - they've got a decent yard for their current location (i'm excited about using it w/my dogs) but it's still a yard in northern toronto, not a country yard.

These people are hopeless. You have lectured them until you are blue in the face and they just keep on with their idiotic dog habits.
The fact that they are even entertaining the idea of boarding other peoples dogs borders on insanity. They are an accident waiting to happen. They have had plenty of warnings already concerning their irresponsible dog handling skills and they just keep on letting the dogs run the show.
If I were you I would cut all ties and move on. I just can't see how you, your dogs, them, or their dogs are going to benefit from continued contact.
You are wasting your time trying to change them, it's not going to happen.

well, the one thing i didn't do was give them the e-book on dogs and kids, b/c i didn't see them when they got back from their honeymoon except in a group (and i wanted to sit down and talk to them) and then the babies died, so....

but i did talk and email to them about it and suggested they might need to prepare more around the dogs. and since then i have talked pretty well until i'm blue in the face about groundwork, leadership, and protecting the pack. i was initially hopeful that they are going to behaviour modification classes, but i think they've been returning to their old ways. i told my friend last night i had some articles on groundwork and pack structure i could (well, would) give her on friday when we go swimming, and she was very obviously unenthusiastic/disinterested.

and, oh, i know - the dog boarding thing is just weirder than i know how to articulate - you have two dogs you don't control and you're going to start to board other dogs? and not only that, but in the same house?

i think their theory is rocky will only attack intact males or small yappy dogs. BUT he did attack our mutual friend's bouvier when the bouv walked between rocky and my friend (large distance between all parties), so that theory is not so strong.

the thing i find weird is that rocky is in my opinion a pretty soft dog, and not dominant, and i can't help but think if things were different....but they're not, and it does not appear they're going to be changing.

It is nice to save dogs and to open one's home to an animal in need but it only serves for its intended purpose if the human is capable of the endeavor.

 Quote:

and the thing that kills me - muzzles, prongs, training tools that should help protect people or have them get through to the dogs just don't interest them.

Unfortunately, the training tools mentioned are only effective when used in a proper fashion with a definitive training / behavioral goal in mind. I can't see these items being of any use to these people or these two poor dogs anyway.

Stories like this kill me (no offense to you Jennifer!) because the meager steps taken to "help" or "save" these poor dogs are only compounding the problem! When these dogs finally do get seized they will probably be destroyed anyway as the damage to their temperaments may be so severe by then that no shelter will be willing to face the risk of adopting them out ever again.

Please do keep us updated (especially those of us in Ontario) and let us know what name these people operate under when they open up their boarding kennel; that's one place I'll be avoiding like the plague.

Jennifer, sorry my comments are so negative; I know you originally asked for help to get through to these friends of yours, but I think that now the only way to help is to offer advise to the direct benefit of the dogs and the community where they are kept, and cutting out the only damaging factor in this case: as usual, human error and/or ignorance.

 Quote: jennifer mullen

and it does not appear they're going to be changing.

Jennifer,
I feel for you and I understand how frustrating it is for you.
My parents, God love them, tend to "kill with kindness".

Their two dogs were so overweight that the Rottie cross died on their kitchen floor from what I am sure is a heart attack. She was about 25" at the shoulder and weighed 160 pounds. It took a back board off of the ambulance and a backhoe to bury her.

I pleaded, begged, bitched and moaned with them to stop feeding her crap and exercise her, but to no avail. They just kept saying, "yeah we will put them on a diet" and just never followed through since the dogs were really good at the starving actors bit.

Their BC cross was the same way and he had to be put down due to large cancerous tumors just a few months ago.
At least I got them feeding raw in his last few months and he had started to lose weight, however I think that was from the cancer taking over.
They also went to the vet in town that would tell them crap like "yeah, he is a little heavy but not that bad" GEESH I wanted to throttle that vet.

I love my parents, I really, really do, but they cannot see what they are doing. They keep threatening to get another dog and to be honest, I am not nice about voicing my opinion.

Some people just don't get it. They think that feeding them crap and showing affection makes for a happy pet. NOT!!!! And sometimes, you just have to look the other way because otherwise you will end up beating your head against the wall.

So not exactly the same situation but it is the same frustration.