Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: robbinmann

..I'm to treat these guys like individuals and not promote "pack" peace?

To clarify: I wasn't saying that.

I was saying that forcing them to share bowls, leaving toys out among them ... anything like that ... is not the way to keep "pack peace."

I think she was talking to me about the "individuals" thing.

I know I'm in a very small minority, but I just do not buy into this whole Milanistic pack mentality. Maybe he can pull it off, but most people can't. I am not part of a pack of dogs. I am a person who owns a bunch of individuals. I do not care who they think is alpha. I do not care if they like each other. I only care that they respect me and do not eat each other, as a courtesy to me. They are dogs, and I am a person. Do people really think dogs don't know the difference between a dog and a human? I don't want to be a dog, I don't want to be treated like a dog, and they don't want to be human (or they wouldn't, if they knew what it was all about ) and I do not treat them like humans. You need to be the leader; you do not need to be a dog to assume this responsibility.

My point w/the "forget pack peace" attitude is that YOU need to be more involved, Robbin, in establishing what is acceptable and what is not. You keep mentioning things about the lab and the BC that sounds like you let them work things out, which is great if that works, but obviously, w/Levi, it's not working. My dogs know that I will never allow another animal (dog, cat, or even bird) to bother them while eating, drinking, or chewing. Since I do my job, they let me, and don't seek out trouble w/one another. I feed them all in different order (again, screw pack order-they'll eat when I feed them, and I decide who eats first), and this way they are not upset or angry if someone else is eating first, since there is no rhyme or reason to my order. They each have their own area, and their own water, in their area. Their toys are never shared, and I don't allow them in kennels or crates that are designated to one dog. I have some that are just spares, but a few (like Caleb's kennel) that no one ever is permitted near. That way, they don't feel as if they need to protect their resources, because that's my job. Pack order is not nearly as important if a strong Alpha is established. Basically, I'm number one, and I don't care about anything beyond that.

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And to me, a huge part of being either pack leader OR the alpha human in charge of a bunch of dogs (and I don't care much which I call it) is exactly that: I decide when and what each dog gets or does not get..... NOT another dog.

I agree that "letting them work it out," while it works fine with some very laid-back and submissive pet dogs, is not a good overall philosophy.

To the O.P.: It is not up to them whether there is aggression or peace. It's up to YOU.

And it's up to you to protect them and their security in being allowed to keep what you have given them and not have it taken by another dog.

A mind-set shift: YOU am in charge. 100%. No dog there, whether a strong one or a happy-go-lucky submissive one, is allowed to alter what you say.

Connie is hitting the nail on its head -- Drivey/dominant dogs will guard anything they posses (even interior doorways) just cuz they CAN <:-O

Keeping the peace has as much to do with proper management as it does with correct training...

As I look back on my childhood when I had 2 female dogs, one a GSD, one a small mix, I understand and agree with what Jenni said. Both dogs were my responsibility, to love, to train, groom and wash, feed, water, play with, take for walks, etc. I'm the only one who really paid attention to them. I knew nothing nor had heard anything about alphas, leaders, packs, etc.

I was 10 and upwards as time went by, and I took good care of them. They never fought, I was the boss and they did what I said, although I wasn't even thinking in terms of "boss". I remember thinking in terms of "team". I never thought twice about taking another dog in, and at one time I did (with parents' permission) and I had 3 dogs. The 3rd was a stray male GSD but he jumped our 6 ft wall, never saw him again . But while he was with us, still no problems. I must have done something right and didn't even know it.

Guess I just didn't have the mental handicap of having heard about pack problems.

 Quote: Sandy Moore

I knew nothing nor had heard anything about alphas, leaders, packs, etc.


Guess I just didn't have the mental handicap of having heard about pack problems.

That's so true. We overcomplicate things, and yet dogs are still dogs. You did what common sense told you to do, and it worked. Common sense is becoming scarce...we get so obsessed with trying to be perfect, that we miss the most obvious, most beneficial things of all.

I want to interject.

For me, pack structure and pack leadership mean the relative position of the dogs in a household in relation to the human(s).

http://www.leerburg.com/groundwork.htm

I do indeed consider myself the pack leader, but by that I do not mean that I am "one of the dogs."

Robbin - any time you take one dog out of a group of dogs even briefly you change the dynamics of the group a bit - and dogs that have any dominant or possesive characteristics might try to express it when they get back together. What is a good idea is to crate all the dogs for a bit before putting them back together(supervised) when you have been doing a anything stimulating like training or exercise. I might be in disagreement with some of the other posters but I would have corrected the dog for jumping another dog at the water dish in my presence - after all it is my dish and I will not tolerate dogs taking it upon themselves to correct anyone or "work it out" - as that is just asking for a big dog fight. I would still keep this dog (and his water dish..) separate from the others unless he was under direct supervision and leaving resources like toys out is a bad idea. If you know a dog has tendencies to be possesive prevention of disagreements and keeping an eye out for potential trouble areas is cheaper and easier than stitches.

Me too, Lynn. My point (as you said, better than I did) was that supervising resources when you have dogs who have already indicated that they are possessive is indeed "cheaper and easier than stitches." Correcting a dog who was protecting his bowl from an invader dog wouldn't come up.

 Quote: RobbinMann

Like I said, guess I have a lot more to learn than I thought. Thanks as always for your candor.

Robbin,

It can be overwhelming, can't it? This has been an excellent thread and you have received great advice. I would like to add something else to the mix. What's one more thing when your mind is already boggled .

Strive for fairness. By this I mean, in a group dynamic there are at least two sides to every story and in your case as many as four . BTW you as the leader are always a part of the equation which is why letting the dogs work some things out themselves could undermine your leadership.

All three of your dogs would benfit from ground work. Before Levi went off on the other two dogs, I can guarantee you he signaled them to stay clear and they chose to ignore it. That in essence is a challenge not just to Levi but to your authority.

The other two were as much at fault as Levi and should have been corrected. That is what I mean by fairness. Levi's age will definitely effect his behavior and any challenges should be met immediately but do not ignore that if it is a scuffle between dogs, everyone has played a role and it is just as important to deal with all involved. Management is key and will help you avoid most confrontations but for those times when this fails; hold all three dogs to the same standard of behavior.

On the bright side, Robbin, adolescents are a BLAST to work and they do mature. Relax and enjoy them you are doing great with your pack.