Quote:

he's manipulating me through avoidance

Yeah, I've heard that before about my dog Cujo. He is too soft to correct hard and too stubborn to listen. The harder you are on him the slower his obedience becomes and in the end you end up with a dog that is overly submissive, has a flat personality because he is always being controlled, AND STILL DOESNT LISTEN WORTH A DAMN! Its a character flaw in some dogs, its a difficult balance for a trainer, especially if the dog is low in drive. Either you break the dogs spirit by being so hard on him that he just mopes around the house and lies down in a corner like an ornament, like the average pet dog is bred to do, or you learn to accept the way your dog is and compromise. Find the balance for YOUR DOG. Not what someone else thinks of your dog.

What I see alot of in working dog circles is dogs that live their lives in a kennel, so as long as the dog does their job, their personality doesn't matter. One example is a young Czech dog. The dog was EXTREMELY NICE. I loved that dog, but he was incredibly prey-posessive and wouldn't let go of his ball or the bite sleeve for anything. The dog was young, so what does the trainer do? He grabs the dog by the collar and shakes the s**t out of him. He did this 2 or 3 times, and now the dog is outing the ball when told. So, it worked right??? Now the dog spits out the ball or sleeve when told, he is still very driven and crazy for biting, everyones happy!

But, the next week I go to play ball with the dog, not working with him, just playing like he's my buddy. The dog WOULDNT COME NEAR ME. He was acting submissive, lowered tail, ducking his head, when I got close enough and reached for him he'd run off thinking I was going to grab his collar and shake him again.

To me, this is unacceptable. While the dogs work (while he is in drive) is un-affected as far as I could tell, his personality in non-working environment has a flaw in it because someone was too harsh with a 13 month old puppy. But, they don't care as long as the dog still works.

I don't like it that people often follow what a trainer says blindly. We've all done it at some point in time, but after a while you start to figure out that nobody knows your dog better than you do. Perhaps the person giving you the advice has never owned a dog with the same balance of drive, submission, stubbornness and hard/softness of your dog. Or perhaps they care less than you do about the effects on the dogs long term personality as long as the dog does what they are told. You are the one that has to live with the dog. I personally like my dogs to be cocky and annoying, its their personality. Whats the point of having a dog if you don't want them to have personality? They're not robots, you don't have to give them commands every 18 seconds, sometimes you just have to give a dog some freedom. Too many people are constantly telling their dogs what to do, instead of leaving them alone. Isn't it the typical stereotype for puppy owners to be yelling "NO!" at their puppies all day long? Heck, you see it with parents too, they run around after their 2 year old all day telling them what they're not allowed to do. You need to find the balance for your individual dog.

Don't get me wrong, I am not soft on dogs, I don't sit around with fluffy on my lap feeding him smoked salmon platters, BUT, I am not harder than the dog needs, and if something isn't getting through to the dog, take a step back and re-evaluate what you are doing wrong.

Excellent post Mike!

Cindy beat me to it- but EXCELLENT post Mike!!!! This should be a sticky or something!
Julie

Wow Mike, that was impressive!

Steve - I have no problem doing the drive if I'm getting something worthwhile out of it. I'm just feeling right now that I'm not, but I am also frustrated by the whole situation.

Mike - again, thank you! That's great advice. I may not know the lines as well as you, but - I don't want to break Luc of his personality. And I don't think I'm going to make a monster by refusing to provoke him and then give a level-10 type correction. I guess the thing for me is I'm not happy with how last week went re: advice, and the more I think about it, the more I feel there's something wrong if Luc shakes the entire he's there (he's always been nervous there, last week was the first time he shook like that), and that I really have to consider if these are the right trainers for us. What you're saying about your dog Cujo makes sense. Thank you so much.

I agree with everything Mike said (as usual!). I like the way Mike reads and knows dogs and the way he handles them. His advice is invaluable, IMO.

Jennifer, I'd lose any trainer that promotes harshness with Luc, because as I understand Luc according to your posts, he needs none of that. YOU have trained this dog to overcome many things. Sometimes a trainer gives us good advice for a period of time when we needed it, then we move on. We'd be lucky to find a trainer like Mike, who is constantly reading the dog as the dog progresses, and understands puppies. Unfortunately there aren't that many around. So when the trainer ceases to "fit" the dog, we leave, because our gut tells us so. If it fits in the beginning, fine, when the fit is no longer there, goodbye.

As far as Luc manipulating you by going into avoidance - geeze. I hate that kind of talk when it concerns a dog because it implies some maliciousness on the dog's part. The type of manipulation that is implied there only pertains to humans. We are capable of manipulation to get our way. We can plan and scheme. Dogs don't plan and scheme.

It seems when your trainers are saying "avoidance", it's when Luc shakes? Shaking is fear and while it can be termed avoidance, you don't handle fear by being harsh. How the heck will that work? IMO, just as coddling during fear reinforces fear, so does harshness. The middle road is best.

I agree with you that you'll be a bully to deliberately get Luc to aggression then throw him or pile on top of him. That would be plain nuts. I read an article where Ed was talking about deliberately putting a dog into a situation that was known to bring out aggression so the handler can deal with it, BUT this was with extremely aggressive dogs, handler aggressive - extreme. NOT for a dog that gives a nip or a little bite. Different dogs, different handling.

Jennifer, you have such common sense about dog training and being as this is your first dog and being able to read Luc so very well as you do, you're like a dog whisperer. It's actually pretty amazing how well you know him and what is good for him. Follow your instincts. They're right on.

Mike
I do not think even Novices like myself will blindly follow what the Trainer Does, or says, Well i do not, but on the other hand those same trainers over here bring there own Dogs for training and it is after they and there dogs have done there stint at Obedience, is that they help people like me
Now, anyone can see the way that they handle there own Dog and Other peoples Dogs, that they know what they are talkng about and the way they go about it, i guess it is the same over in the USA they know what they are doing i would imagine just the same they make it look fairly easy but for a beginner it is not so and plus if i thought they were being unreasonable and hard on my Dog then i would tell them a bit Quick,
But the Trainers over here do not handle your Dog at all they show you and advise you what you must do
Now as myself and Jennifer are beginners with G.S Dogs, then you trust the trainers advice or you try elsewhere, For my Trainer He is the Captain of the Belgian Schutzund team, He is a well known Judge at Competitions and Travels all over the World, He is very good with Dogs and even me as a Novice can see that and the dogs respect him and he is not what i call tough on them, but he stands no buck from them
i am very lucky he does not charge any one over here at the club for his services it is done because he loves what he does and his aim is to get top dogs from the Club hopefully to Compete for there country one day
Jennifer, has to make up her own mind on what she does. But one thing i do know is with all species of Animals it takes time to stop mis behaviour, nothing is done in two minutes, I know how she must feel at times very frustrated, i have been so often. and an english saying is 'that you cannot see the wood for the trees, but i am pretty sure there is a light at the end of the tunnel for Fred and myself, providing we both stick at it, make mistakes and learn together then in the end we will win the battle. I hope you win the Battle with Your 'Luc' Jennifer stick at it, will power with prevail in the end

Now I know how you got all those star Mike. Nicely put.


See Jennifer, you knew you were right all along.


If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

 Quote: jennifer mullen

i'm pretty sure mace and pepper spray are illegal here... i am pretty sure bear spray is legal

Jennifer, bear mace , I mean "spray" is legal here but if you are carrying that anywhere but the back woods where you might actually encounter a bear then you are asking for trouble with the police. You are also correct that pepper spray is illegal, that is because it is considered a weapon. However, "dog repellant" is not considered a weapon; it is a repellant. Also, it is not illegal in some parts of the country so long as it is carried for the purpose of protecting oneself from a dog attack that was unprovoked. Call your local by-law and police offices to be sure, maybe even a lawyer.

I've also sent you a PM.

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

but last week i was told that b/c luc got upset when i iced his paw, that i needed to take him home, keep him on a choke chain (which i am NOT doing, i do not have the experience to use that safely), and basically to start a fight with him - deliberately provoke his aggression - and then either throw him or pile on him aggressively and basically do a huge physical assertion of dominance. but luc is well-behaved inside and out. when i take him out in public, i get constant 'what a polite well-behaved dog' comments....people were even talking on

IMO, any trainer who is still recommending choke chains and alpha rolls, especially for a FIRST TIMER is nuts. Like dangerous nuts. Stick to your guns and work the dog yourself.