Which countries deploy muzzled David??
Holland does not, Germany does not.

Aughhhh!
This subject is nuts. Th B&H dog is a better performer period even if the handler doesn't use it.
It is the route to a more intense encounter between a suspect and a dog.
ANYONE who cannot see that B&H is the best route to highly performing police dogs has missed the root of police dog work and PSD behavior. Yep, I said it instead of being PC.
I had this talk with a large agencies trainer that found their dogs were walking people on the street. They had stopped doing B&H in the basic course (they always returned to F&B once their basic was over but had stopped doing it in their basic class). They were looking for answers. My answer was "now you know why it is so important to teach the B&H!!!"
The internsity of the encounter, even with hidden or passive subjects increases with the properly trained B&H. The dog views the suspect as a potential fighting partner.
Liabiliity is higher on the B&H dog??? How?? There is not a single circuit or supreme court decision regarding this issue, not one. I have never said that the B&H dog does not bite (that would be a S&R dog in my book) and that I train to keep the dog from biting suspects.
I train to keep the dog from seeking alternate routes into the suspect via training the B&H, I train to keep the dog focused on the suspect via B&H, I train to have the dog increase the intensity of the encounter as the action of the suspect increases via the B&H, I
train for a strong positive indication via the B&H.

In Holland i asked what some handlers thought of a dog entering a building after warnings and then the dog biting the suspect hiding under a desk. They said he should have given up not that the dog should have done a B&H. I asked a now retired instructor of one of the largest schools in germany, how many dogs do a B&H and do not bite when they initially find a suspect on the street. He said maybe 50%.
People who are well versed in the training of the B&H will tell you that this is how the dogs are made civil.
The history of the B&H is NOT that the police took it from sport, but the sport took it from the police.
I am continually amazed at the F&B argument as if I can't tell my dog to bite because he is a B&H dog?? and that if a suspect is found he is perfectly safe killing the dog and me?? All he has to do is move slowly??
Wow, come with me and we'll demonstrate that all I have to do is follow common sense officer safety and use my dog in a thoughtful and controlled and directable fashion and I will be safe.
For every time someone says I know of this dog that if he had bitten would have not been hurt, or handler would have not been hurt, etc i can counter with a B&H positive arguement.
I have fielded both kinds of dogs and made apprehensions with both kinds of dogs.

I realize that in the east and southeast there are few B&H dogs. But here in the west and southwest the number of B&H dogs is more than F&B dogs.
But, as I watch dogs around the country I often laugh when a guy shows me his PHI or IPO dog who spent the formative years of its life learning the B&H. Then the handler goes to bad mouthing the B&H while reaping the benefits from their dog being reared to do B&H.
I have always said, if I want the best F&B dog it will be one that I started off as a B&H dog and then left it to fade, which is what all the law enforcement handlers are doing even with the most green of sport dogs they buy to make police dogs from.

 Quote: Howard Knauf

BH....takes extra time to train and maintain. Time that alot of handlers aren't alotted even though they can do it on their own if they are deicated enough.

Howard

Howard,

I really have no problem with the extra training. If that was the sole problem then i think it wouldn't be bad at all but it is all the other problems that worry me with it.

(Also, i didn't mean to edit your post, i only wanted to comment on this part, everything else i agree with.)

 Quote: kevin sheldahl

Aughhhh!
This subject is nuts. Th B&H dog is a better performer period even if the handler doesn't use it.
It is the route to a more intense encounter between a suspect and a dog.

Claiming that B&H makes a dog a better performer doesn't mean much when it is just statement. Is the encounter more intense because it stresses the dog out more that he has to wait and bite?

 Quote: kevin sheldahl

ANYONE who cannot see that B&H is the best route to highly performing police dogs has missed the root of police dog work and PSD behavior. Yep, I said it instead of being PC.

I am glad you said it without worrying about political correctness. I feel that political correctness is a waist of time and you don't get your point across. With that being said i guess i missed the route of police dog and PSD behavior. Bare in mind there are more then one way to train a dog. I think it is simple narrow mindedness if you think one way is the best way. But by all means i am always willing to learn something new.

 Quote: kevin sheldahl

I had this talk with a large agencies trainer that found their dogs were walking people on the street. They had stopped doing B&H in the basic course (they always returned to F&B once their basic was over but had stopped doing it in their basic class). They were looking for answers. My answer was "now you know why it is so important to teach the B&H!!!"

I got no idea what you are talking about here (terminology kills) What do you mean they where "walking" people on the streets?

 Quote: kevin sheldahl

The internsity of the encounter, even with hidden or passive subjects increases with the properly trained B&H. The dog views the suspect as a potential fighting partner.
Liabiliity is higher on the B&H dog??? How?? There is not a single circuit or supreme court decision regarding this issue, not one. I have never said that the B&H dog does not bite (that would be a S&R dog in my book) and that I train to keep the dog from biting suspects.

Well the intensity of the encounter with a hidden or passive subject could be increased with any properly trained dog not necessarily just B&H. I would imagine that any dog doing bite work or given the command when working will view anyone as a potential fighting partner. B&H does not hold that ground by it self.

 Quote: kevin sheldahl

I train to keep the dog from seeking alternate routes into the suspect via training the B&H, I train to keep the dog focused on the suspect via B&H, I train to have the dog increase the intensity of the encounter as the action of the suspect increases via the B&H, I
train for a strong positive indication via the B&H.

This is all very good but i dont see how B&H changes routes, focus, or intensity and Positive indication?

 Quote: kevin sheldahl

In Holland i asked what some handlers thought of a dog entering a building after warnings and then the dog biting the suspect hiding under a desk. They said he should have given up not that the dog should have done a B&H. I asked a now retired instructor of one of the largest schools in germany, how many dogs do a B&H and do not bite when they initially find a suspect on the street. He said maybe 50%.

Ok 50% that is maybe half, i could argue for the other half just as easily, i could also argue how many out of your 50% was it mandatory for the trainer to teach B&H rather then what they wanted? (and i am sure you could make the same argument the other way around) To me B&H is more about being PC then doing your job.

 Quote: kevin sheldahl

People who are well versed in the training of the B&H will tell you that this is how the dogs are made civil.

And trainers who are well versed in bite and hold that will teach you the other ways.

 Quote: kevin sheldahl

The history of the B&H is NOT that the police took it from sport, but the sport took it from the police.
I am continually amazed at the F&B argument as if I can't tell my dog to bite because he is a B&H dog?? and that if a suspect is found he is perfectly safe killing the dog and me?? All he has to do is move slowly??

Hm, i always saw B&H as a sports thing? It seems i was mistaken. I dont think anyone is saying your dog cant bite, i am sure your dog can bite just as well as the next dog. The argument (my argument) is that with B&H the dog is out there for a longer amount of time and that time difference could mean life and death for my dog.

 Quote: kevin sheldahl

Wow, come with me and we'll demonstrate that all I have to do is follow common sense officer safety and use my dog in a thoughtful and controlled and directable fashion and I will be safe.

I would love to see a demonstration (i honestly would) i am sure there is a lot i could learn from it.

 Quote: kevin sheldahl

For every time someone says I know of this dog that if he had bitten would have not been hurt, or handler would have not been hurt, etc i can counter with a B&H positive arguement.

And vis versa.

I have fielded both kinds of dogs and made apprehensions with both kinds of dogs.

I realize that in the east and southeast there are few B&H dogs. But here in the west and southwest the number of B&H dogs is more than F&B dogs.
But, as I watch dogs around the country I often laugh when a guy shows me his PHI or IPO dog who spent the formative years of its life learning the B&H. Then the handler goes to bad mouthing the B&H while reaping the benefits from their dog being reared to do B&H.

One of the issues that I think is being overlooked is the properly trained B&H dog. One of the problems that I have seen here in the midwest is the amount of initial training given to dogs. Some vendors take a titled dog and call it a bark and hold dog. The dog then goes through the school and gets on the street. Once the dog is out on the street and starts going to maintenance training, if it does go, the dog becomes dirty in the B&H and no one knows how to correct the problem.

I have helped to straighten out a couple of these dogs, but have used the e-collar to do this. I agree with Kevin that once a dog learns that the helper is someone to possibly fight with the dog becomes very intense. This intensity carries over to search work. Provided you have the correct drives in the dog to start with.

I recently got into a discussion with a Master Trainer from a national organization about the use of an e-collar. He called it junk and Edison Medicine. I told him we will have to agree to disagree, but was amazed at the amount of dogs who would not call off during certification at the seminar we were at. Some of these dogs were trained as B&H dogs.

My point in this is that no matter what method you are using you have to continually train to keep your dog sharp in all areas of Police Service.

Mr. West,
You comment on my post as if I started this work a couple years ago.
You obviously didn't read the whole thing. I have fielded both types of dogs and trained both types of dogs. My experience with working dogs spans a mere 25 years years or so. So a comment based on a varied experience with a large number of dogs isn't simply an off the cuff statement.

Walking the suspect is just that, walking past them without making an indication that is obvious.
You say that there are other ways to train a dog to have a strong indication, not leave a suspect that is passive, hidden, etc yes there are but none as effective and efficient. The only way that I have ever seen a F&B dog trained to escalate based on the behavior of the suspect was it was natural for that dog or that the dog just lacked training and was unsure (this being the most common).

I always like the training takes more time comment, it always comes up. It takes no more time, but it does take more skill and knowledge.

You seem to have a picture of a B&H dog just hanging out there barking at someone. That is not the reality of deployment 99% of the time. The dog is called back, downed, or told to engage the suspect. B&H simply developes a better alert and indication from the dog more quickly and helps maintain it.
The handler has a responsibility to do something when a suspect is located. Not stand around watching their dog perform a B&H. The fact is that standing there watching will eventually result in a dog bite since most foundational work in the B&H revolves around bark then bite routines. B&H gives the handler the option of what to do next. Do i call the dog back, down the dog until I can get in a tactically sound position, or tell the dog to engage the suspect. All these are possibilities.

The other assumption about F&B is that the dog is 100% effective. This is a laugh, some people walk through bean bags, tazers, OC, batons and yes police dogs. Determined bad guys don't just crumple when bitten and the I'm safer and so is my dog when it bites argument goes right out the window when you realize that this is a truth.

Has it happened to me?? Yep, bad guys who have seen worse than I can offer, bad guys with heavy clothing shielding them from the effects of a dog bite, substance abuse that makes them impervious to pain during the time of the encounter, flat out crazy people whose reaction is off the charts.

So, the flexibility of the properly trained B&H dog is what I will use and train new people in the use of. It is a wonder that Americans are so arogent that they view all the other countries in the world that use this method as being nothing but PC, or influenced by sport as if they don't do real police work and encounter real bad guys.

>>>>>Hm, i always saw B&H as a sports thing? It seems i was mistaken. I dont think anyone is saying your dog cant bite, i am sure your dog can bite just as well as the next dog. The argument (my argument) is that with B&H the dog is out there for a longer amount of time and that time difference could mean life and death for my dog.<<<<<

First please don't patronize me. I have fielded a patrol dog for many years. I pretty much know when a dog will and won't bite especially mine. If you are in a life or death situation then you are using the wrong tool if you are using a dog.

If you send a dog and the best tactic and a justifiable tactic is to engage the suspect then you send the dog to do that, not to go hanging out barking, this action would demonstrate an ill prepared dog and handler team.

Quite honestly, it would be hard for me to say that my dog bites because it is safer for the dog. When it comes right down to it the dog is a piece of equipment with no rights, no family, nothing. But that suspect you bit with the justification that my dog bites to keep a dog safe is a human with all the rights afforded to him/her. The safety for the dog is just not a viable argument in law enforcement, we wreck stuff all the time in our job, property is always the lowest on the list of priorities.
Dog lovers may not like this truth but it is the truth.

 Quote: Kevin Sheldahl

Mr. West,
You comment on my post as if I started this work a couple years ago.
You obviously didn't read the whole thing. I have fielded both types of dogs and trained both types of dogs. My experience with working dogs spans a mere 25 years years or so. So a comment based on a varied experience with a large number of dogs isn't simply an off the cuff statement.

If my comment sounded like i was saying you dident know what you where talking about, it was far from that so i am sorry if it came off that way. You just made it seem like B&H was the <i>only</i> way to train.

 Quote: Kevin Sheldahl

Walking the suspect is just that, walking past them without making an indication that is obvious.
You say that there are other ways to train a dog to have a strong indication, not leave a suspect that is passive, hidden, etc yes there are but none as effective and efficient. The only way that I have ever seen a F&B dog trained to escalate based on the behavior of the suspect was it was natural for that dog or that the dog just lacked training and was unsure (this being the most common).

I will be the first to admit my experience is lacking so i will chock it up to that and do some more research on this.

 Quote: Kevin Sheldahl

I always like the training takes more time comment, it always comes up. It takes no more time, but it does take more skill and knowledge.

Never trained the B&H so i cant compare. One trainer did start training it and then a cert authority told him it was a nice trick but thats all it was so the handler never continued it.

 Quote: Kevin Sheldahl

You seem to have a picture of a B&H dog just hanging out there barking at someone. That is not the reality of deployment 99% of the time. The dog is called back, downed, or told to engage the suspect. B&H simply developes a better alert and indication from the dog more quickly and helps maintain it.

Honestly that pretty much is the picture i have of B&H. I think one of the main diffrences is that we always run after are dogs and they are trained to stay with the decoy rather then return back to us. Like i said i am going to have to do some research.

 Quote: Kevin Sheldahl

The handler has a responsibility to do something when a suspect is located. Not stand around watching their dog perform a B&H. The fact is that standing there watching will eventually result in a dog bite since most foundational work in the B&H revolves around bark then bite routines. B&H gives the handler the option of what to do next. Do i call the dog back, down the dog until I can get in a tactically sound position, or tell the dog to engage the suspect. All these are possibilities.

Dont get me wrong, i can clearly see some benifits to it, but my mind set is, if i release my dog, that person did something to get bit. Why delay the bite? My views is get in there and get it done as fast as you can.

(I am going to send you a PM, i think we might be training are dogs pretty much the same way but the terminology killed it so it sounds like two things)

 Quote: Kevin Sheldahl

The other assumption about F&B is that the dog is 100% effective. This is a laugh, some people walk through bean bags, tazers, OC, batons and yes police dogs. Determined bad guys don't just crumple when bitten and the I'm safer and so is my dog when it bites argument goes right out the window when you realize that this is a truth.

Nothing is 100% effective. Just got to figure out which is most effective most of the time .

 Quote: Kevin Sheldahl

Has it happened to me?? Yep, bad guys who have seen worse than I can offer, bad guys with heavy clothing shielding them from the effects of a dog bite, substance abuse that makes them impervious to pain during the time of the encounter, flat out crazy people whose reaction is off the charts.

Hasent happend to me and i sure as hell hope it doesn't happen.

 Quote: Kevin Sheldahl

So, the flexibility of the properly trained B&H dog is what I will use and train new people in the use of. It is a wonder that Americans are so arogent that they view all the other countries in the world that use this method as being nothing but PC, or influenced by sport as if they don't do real police work and encounter real bad guys.

Well i am currently in Kosovo and have the pleasure of training with Germans, Swedish, Finish, Austrians, and have helped train the local KPS K9 up to standard (Kosovo Police Service).

The main trainer the Germans had, had a heavy heavy infuince in sports. He also trained the B&H and to me it mainly looked like a show.

 Quote: Kevin Sheldahl

First please don't patronize me. I have fielded a patrol dog for many years. I pretty much know when a dog will and won't bite especially mine. If you are in a life or death situation then you are using the wrong tool if you are using a dog.

First, i am not patronizing you. I honestly thought B&H came from sports.

 Quote: Kevin Sheldahl

If you send a dog and the best tactic and a justifiable tactic is to engage the suspect then you send the dog to do that, not to go hanging out barking, this action would demonstrate an ill prepared dog and handler team.

I guess it is just diffrent ways of working the dogs, the only time we send the dog out is to bite. If the suspect does not deserve to be bite then we do not send are dog out.

 Quote: Kevin Sheldahl

Quite honestly, it would be hard for me to say that my dog bites because it is safer for the dog. When it comes right down to it the dog is a piece of equipment with no rights, no family, nothing. But that suspect you bit with the justification that my dog bites to keep a dog safe is a human with all the rights afforded to him/her. The safety for the dog is just not a viable argument in law enforcement, we wreck stuff all the time in our job, property is always the lowest on the list of priorities.
Dog lovers may not like this truth but it is the truth.

Sadly i cant argue agenst this, it is the truth.

Mr. Sheldahl,

Ok i lied. I am going to post my example here rather then e-mail you.

OK Now i think B&H Might be similar to what we do.

When i release my dog i am planning on him going straight for the bite. If the suspect does not need to be bit then i do not release my dog. Now if there is a situation where the suspect give up then i can call my dog out and my dog will still run up to the decoy and sit down in front or behind of the decoy with his focus on the decoy waiting for my next command or for the decoy to make any sudden or aggressive movements (or reaching in to pockets).

Now is this far off from B&H?