David,
My way of thinking "and not always the best way" is that a B&H dog takes a greater chance of being stabbed,slashed, shot, beaten, than a dog that locates the suspect and bites without hesitation.

The B&H dog, if trained to apprehend the suspect IF the suspect becomes aggresive, would be a better way than a B&H that will not engage until commanded by the handler.

My way of thinking again, is that I am not going to send my dog to apprehend anyone unless he is getting the bite. I know there are times when a neighbor,etc. will step into the picture and possibly get the wrong end of the dog, but when the situation calls for the send, I want to know that the dog did engage and not just bark.

OK just to try an make it a bit more clear on exactly why i started this thread.

It is meant to talk on the subject of getting your K9 to Act on your command and not be dependent on the actions of the subject.

Let me preface this whole thing by saying that I have never trained or handled a PSD or anything even close to it. My comments/suggestions are based on my observations on this forum and my experience with the basic principles of training animals. I'm just putting an idea out for you to build upon. If I say something that isn't true or doesn't make sense, sorry.

Start with your dog biting when the decoy is behaving as usual (active/aggressive), gradually decrease the amount of activity/aggression from the decoy while maintaining the same level of intensity from the dog until the dog is lunging at and biting a motionless decoy.
It is the same principle as giving the dog a very obvious cue or command in the initial training and gradually decreasing the cue to a very subtle one while maintaining the same precise/intense response from the dog.
And it sounds like you also want your dog to respond to subtle cues as well. Maybe you could teach both at the same time.
Maybe the lounging/lunging dog is just super-sharp and focused on his handler. Is your dog capable of that level of sharpness, even with the right type of training/conditioning?

I think in your initial example of the dog lunging up at you, that the dog picked the person he perceived to be the greatest threat available, you, because you have been a threat/decoy in the past. Maybe if one of the other people in the group had happened to move forward at that moment he would have perceived them as the threat instead of you. He was just doing what he was told, even if it was a very subtle cue and not directed at any one person.

"Maybe if one of the other people in the group had happened to move forward at that moment he would have perceived them as the threat instead of you."

With PSD, control should be that the dog does not react to his perception, but the commands of the handler. Increased awareness, ok, focus on something that interests the dog, ok, reacting to a percieved threat, incorrect response.

DFrost

 Quote: michael west

OK just to try an make it a bit more clear on exactly why i started this thread.

It is meant to talk on the subject of getting your K9 to Act on your command and not be dependent on the actions of the subject.

I hate to step into a conversation that I'm clearly not qualified to discuss, but in reading the link that Yuko posted (Q&A Police), I read that Ed wrote this: "I would like to say that a B&H dog must also be able to be told to bite on command. This means he must bite a standing still man and a man that's laying down with his hands under him and not moving" (italics mine). Figured this applied to Michael's question on biting on command and not just based on actions of a suspect.

Michael, just curious, have you tried your dog on a decoy that is just standing there, see what he would do? I'm thinking a command is a command. Of course the bite command involves stress to the dog, unlike a "sit", but if "sit" or "down" is expected in all circumstances wouldn't a bite command be the same? Isn't the training of the bite started with the decoy moving around to stimulate the dog's prey drive, but once the dog knows and obeys the bite command each time, wouldn't it progress to and follow that the dog would bite when told, no matter the activity of the decoy?

"It is meant to talk on the subject of getting your K9 to Act on your command and not be dependent on the actions of the subject."

If that is your question, let's look at some things the dog already does, and how to improve on them. I'm assuming (yeah I know the dangers of assuming) the dog currently performs; false runs, the bite, out from the bite and standoffs. If that's the case, you have the basics now take them to the next level. The next level is; the dog will do these, regardless of the actions of the decoy. Often time, when training is observed, on the command of out the decoy freezes. The question; will the dog release the bite if the decoy is still fighting. Second part of the question, will the dog break off the pursuit if the decoy is still running. The attainment of those objectives is just a continuation of training. For example, if the dog does release, on command, and the decoy ceases movement, continue with just a small amount of movement. For a standoff, the dog that is recalled when the decoy stops running, have the decoy come to a slow walk. Gradually increase the amount of pressure the decoy adds as the dog gains proficiency.

DFrost

 Quote: David C.Frost

The next level is; the dog will do these, regardless of the actions of the decoy. Often time, when training is observed, on the command of out the decoy freezes. The question; will the dog release the bite if the decoy is still fighting. Second part of the question, will the dog break off the pursuit if the decoy is still running.
DFrost

I have seen quite a few PSDs that will not recall on a moving subject, nor will they out on a fighting subject. As you said, this is a continuation of the initial training to make the dog what he is supposed to be. Sadly, a lot of handlers do not train for situations like this once they reach an out or recall on passive subjects. Fairness and liability dictates that the dog obey the handler regardless of the circumstances.

Howard

 Quote: sandy moore

Michael, just curious, have you tried your dog on a decoy that is just standing there, see what he would do? I'm thinking a command is a command. Of course the bite command involves stress to the dog, unlike a "sit", but if "sit" or "down" is expected in all circumstances wouldn't a bite command be the same? Isn't the training of the bite started with the decoy moving around to stimulate the dog's prey drive, but once the dog knows and obeys the bite command each time, wouldn't it progress to and follow that the dog would bite when told, no matter the activity of the decoy?

I haven't gone into it yet but that pretty much is my plan, Put him in a muzzle and go to locations where we don't usually do bite work and do this this kind of training.

As far as how the dog was trained from a pup, im the sixth handler so *shrug*

 Quote: David C.Frost

If that is your question, let's look at some things the dog already does, and how to improve on them. I'm assuming (yeah I know the dangers of assuming) the dog currently performs; false runs, the bite, out from the bite and standoffs.

Well i am not one to stroke my ego so i have no problem saying that my dog Is above the standard but his training is still very basic.

 Quote: David C.Frost

If that's the case, you have the basics now take them to the next level. The next level is; the dog will do these, regardless of the actions of the decoy. Often time, when training is observed, on the command of out the decoy freezes. The question; will the dog release the bite if the decoy is still fighting. Second part of the question, will the dog break off the pursuit if the decoy is still running.

For the most part if i call my dog out he will out regardless of what the decoy is doing. Granted we do not train that way often so i couldn't tell you 100% what will happen, but i think he will out in 3-4 seconds.

See now this is where (from what i can see) the military and local PD training differs. Are dogs do not recall when we call them out on a pursuit. We call the dog out and the dog will run up to the decoy waiting for the decoy to act up or for us to give the command. As compared to the dog returning to the handler (Of course we could call the dog out and then heel and then the dog would return)

 Quote: David C.Frost

The attainment of those objectives is just a continuation of training. For example, if the dog does release, on command, and the decoy ceases movement, continue with just a small amount of movement. For a standoff, the dog that is recalled when the decoy stops running, have the decoy come to a slow walk. Gradually increase the amount of pressure the decoy adds as the dog gains proficiency.

DFrost

Yup this is pretty much how i/we train.