The skinner quote was appropriate, it was the sentence that I quoted that I was pointing out a problem with.

This article is interesting, and I think really goes along with what you're talking about, Kelly:

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1549

I guess I have issue with thinking that Shaping has to be so specific. I learned Operant Conditioning the Skinner way. Once you get an animal thinking operantly, the training goes quickly. If luring will help your dog get there, then I think luring is appropriate. Sometimes you need the lure to get the light bulb to go off....

Connie is right, it is basically Marker training... both Clicker training and Marker training get the animal to think in an operant way.

Straight clicker training may not use luring, but who really trains with just one method? I will use luring along with clicker training... after all, it's not like I am being graded on how long I wait for the voluntary behavior... if my dog gets it, and I can move on to another exercise, well, that's all that is important to me. Nobody will come and take away my clicker because I used a lure.

I lured and used the clicker for Toni's contacts in agility and now I have perfect contacts. Getting Toni to get it with completely voluntary behavior would have taken months.

What I am saying, I think, is that people should do what works for thier dog... each dog is different and each exercise is different. Training 100% BY THE BOOK is not very practical.

I agree with you 100% on using multiple training methods, Kelly. And of course, I use many methods. But my understanding of Jennifer's original question framed it as a question about "free shaping" as described by the "clicker training" crew. That's why I've been very specific about what I'm referring to here, and also why I've answered her the way that I did. It's actually an important distinction (probably only for the purpose of this conversation) :p

Hey guys,

Thanks for the great discussion! I totally get the Skinner quote and it is true that I am shaping behavior in all the training I do and all the different methods I use! (and I use a lot of them, well I might add!)

My dog is also "stoked" when the clicker comes out and I have used the clicker with much success just as I would a verbal marker (I have verbal marker trained since dog was 8 weeks old)..

David Eagle is correct that I was reffering to my first try at "free shaping" or "shaping by successive approximation" a more complex behavior. No luring, no pointing, no looking at the object...just waiting for him to offer it on his own and then marking.

This article deals with the differences in terms at play in this thread, and talks about luring vs. or before successive approximation.

http://www.behaviorlogic.com/id23.html

From David E.'s post and the rest of your posts I have realized I do not need to be a purist! I can point or look at the object, lure, and do whatever works! I am all about whatever works I am into trying new training techniques as well Just not sure I have the patience for "successive approximation" without the luring before it.

We are a little caught up in semantics here. I assure you I understand marker training and know that a clicker is just a marker. I know I actually do use shaping all the time. I was just trying something slightly different, and it threw my dog and I for a loop

It is great to get to talk it out... Just with the different definitions on this thread it forced me to look up a few more things on line, and understand it a little better, get a few more ideas....

Clear as mud now???

 Quote: david eagle

David seems to be saying that any sort of training (behavior shaping) is "Shaping". In clicker training, the word "Shaping" often refers to a specific method of shaping behavior that doesn't involve any luring or pressure and relies only on rewarding totally voluntary behavior.

What I'm saying is; Shaping is shaping. whether it's lured, clicked or body slammed. I understand the concept of free-shaping and like many trainers take advantage of it when it happens. None-the-less, it's still "shaping". When you say "shaping often refers to a specific method", it doesn't change the definition of shaping. I don't disagree that clicking is shaping.

DFrost

One point that I have learned with free shaping is that placement of reward can really speed up the learning.

In other words, if you are trying to get your dog to touch a target or a tug then when he even glances that way place the reward ON the object you wish for him to touch.

I have been to a couple of training seminars recently, and we did clicker exercises without our dogs. One person was the dog, one was the trainer. without placement of reward being optimal, I could not figure out what my "trainer" wanted me to do. The task was for me to untie my shoes and tie them together and until my "trainer" started placing my reward ON the lace area of my shoes I just didn't understand. (I work for M & M's LOL )

 Quote: david c.frost

What I'm saying is; Shaping is shaping. whether it's lured, clicked or body slammed. ...

...it doesn't change the definition of shaping. I don't disagree that clicking is shaping.

DFrost

Alright, last post because I really feel that it's off topic. We are using the term "shaping" in this thread to refer specifically to the act of "free-shaping". In that context, the greater meanings of the term shaping is totally and completely irrelevant to this conversation, and the subset of shaping that "free-shaping" falls into is important to distinguish specifically because it completely precludes things like luring. In the context that the question was asked, you're incorrect to say that they are the same.

However, you are right to imply that they should be used together. I see no reason to use free shaping as your only training tool, UNLESS you're specifically doing it to sharpen your marker skills and to give your dog a really strenuous mental workout.

That doesn't change the fact that if someone asks a question about free shaping I'm not going to answer it with luring advice.

An excellent book that I have read several times is:
"Shaping success: the education of an unlikely champion / by Susan Garrett"
ISBN 1892694131
Written by one of the world’s best dog trainers, Shaping Success gives an excellent explanation of the theory behind animal learning as Susan Garrett trains a high-energy Border Collie puppy to be an agility champion. Buzzy’s story both entertains and demonstrates how to apply some of the most up-to-date dog training methods in the real world. It’s rare that a trainer shares his or her mistakes as well as successes. Susan presents a great mix of training theory, practical application, and Buzzy stories.

You can get it at http://www.cleanrun.com or http://www.dogwise.com

 Quote: cindy easton rhodes

I have been to a couple of training seminars recently, and we did clicker exercises without our dogs. One person was the dog, one was the trainer. without placement of reward being optimal, I could not figure out what my "trainer" wanted me to do. The task was for me to untie my shoes and tie them together and until my "trainer" started placing my reward ON the lace area of my shoes I just didn't understand. (I work for M & M's LOL )

What a great exercise! Man, THAT must bring it home.

 Quote: melissa blazak

An excellent book that I have read several times is:
"Shaping success: the education of an unlikely champion / by Susan Garrett"
ISBN 1892694131
Written by one of the world’s best dog trainers, Shaping Success gives an excellent explanation of the theory behind animal learning as Susan Garrett trains a high-energy Border Collie puppy to be an agility champion. Buzzy’s story both entertains and demonstrates how to apply some of the most up-to-date dog training methods in the real world. It’s rare that a trainer shares his or her mistakes as well as successes. Susan presents a great mix of training theory, practical application, and Buzzy stories.

You can get it at http://www.cleanrun.com or http://www.dogwise.com

We are also going to be selling this book, as soon as our first shipment comes in.