Perhaps it is simply a personal preference as working with hundreds of people daily regarding their dogs they do NOT understand the concept of punishment from an operant conditioning standpoint. I NEVER "punish" a dog - for me, the use of the word depends on the intent used. My intent for a correction is not to punish the dog it is a redirection.

A pop on a collar for breaking a heel is a "pay attention to me, not the neighbor across the street." Etc. Corrections are only used after the learning phase, and as such is a disciplinary/consequence based action on my part, not a punishment.

You stated yourself you have limited experience with aggressive animals. I learned early on, VERY quickly that attempting to be purely possitive with a dog that is trying to eat another dog and you get in the way is a great recipe for Emergency Room Visits. In my learning days with handler and dog aggressive dogs I sustained over 20 serious bites, often bites in direct immediate succession from the same dog in the same situation.

If you have never been in a situation where a dog is truly honestly trying to get to another dog to attack it, versus just being hyper active, or just being dominant in its body language and otherwise having poor OB, etc etc, then you don't know what its like to work with a dog that sees you as a threat or as an obstacle that must be removed that stands between it and it's target, or an animal that is being restrained from its target by you and out of frustration and being in drive, nails you, etc etc the list goes on.

Benjamin: A dominant dog is that way because he is. It's his make up, not a result of injury or training. Counter conditioning with positive reinforcement doesn't even make any sense because the dog was not conditioned to respond dominant/aggressive, he just IS dominant. You can't reason it out of them.

On another threaad you mentioned you would have put that dominant dog on a down & walked away until it gained control. Here's the thing - a dominant dog wouldn't have LET you just put him in a down because the minute he became dominant as far as he was concerned, the fight was ON!!! You talk about a leash correction - giving a leash correction to the dog would have guaranteed that dog would have come up the leash and eaten you.

One of the real beautiful things is seeing a dominant dog collar in action. No muss, no fuss, and it's over very quickly. Nothing bad happens to the dog either, it learns and very quickly with low stress - a lot lower stress than a knock down drag out with the handler!

What other tool or technique is efficacious in the type of scenario that you'd be using the DD collar in? I am always interested in learning different approaches.

Also, out of curiosity, what sort of dogs do you work with, Benjamin?

 Quote: susan tuck

A dominant dog is that way because he is. It's his make up, not a result of injury or training.

An important point, thank you Susan. A lot of aggression issues are dominance based. Aggression towards another pack member (the handler/owner which SHOULD be alpha) is a challenge of authority.

I can assure you that wolves and dogs do not use purely possitive methods of redirection and reinforcement when another pack member gets out of hand. Which does not mean that we as human beings should not, but the situations we find ourselves in with our dogs are not things that dogs in the wild go out and do with each other. Because of this we need to use methods the dog understands.

Not saying these have to be harsh, heavy handed, or a strictly I-am-dominant-you-are-not-now-I-must-punish-you methods, but I would love to see a high drive, hard dog that is going after another dog with intent to attack, be redirected and worked in a strictly possitive reinforcement way. I am not trying to be sarcastic, I would seriously, honestly love to see this work.

Edited by Jennifer Marshal (12/04/2007 12:34 AM)
Edit reason: spelling

We are talking about two very different subjects here people. Dominance is not aggression. Sometimes and only sometimes dominance causes aggression. For the most part aggression is not caused by dominance.

I am not saying dominance can be trained out of dogs. I understand that dominance is a combination of environment and genes.

Do you leave the DD collar on 24-7? The reason I ask is that I don't see it as a training collar in which you would initiate contact in order to see if a dog acts aggressively and then correct. I have a dog that can be dominant and scrappy. Knowing this I prevent him from playing off lead with other dogs. I keep him socialized on lead. This way I do not have to use a correction as he never gets to that point.

I tend to do basic obedience work with family dogs. The reason I do not suggest training collars or even corrections is because these people can hardly grasp the timing of a clicker, much less a prong.

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

I tend to do basic obedience work with family dogs. The reason I do not suggest training collars or even corrections is because these people can hardly grasp the timing of a clicker, much less a prong.

I will not begin an argument with you here regarding dominance and aggression, I just plain refuse. If someone else cares to they can step in.

I will say that as someone who does basic OB with family dogs I understand your viewpoint regarding prong/pinch and DD collars - they are indeed not always the best tool depending on the people. BUT prong collars are by FAR better than choke chains! People ignorant to the ways of dogs are far more likely to cause serious damage to the dogs by way of a choke chain than with a prong.

I too work with dogs in people's homes, I do basic obedience, behavior modification, and primarily seek out dogs with issues such as aggression, dominance, and fear/anxiety. I have worked with dogs that have been used for fighting. I have worked with dogs that have killed other dogs or other animals and bitten people. Most of the people here are speaking from experience on these matters not just hunches and guesses derived from reading books and watching the Dog Whisperer. (not to be a slight to Cesar! LOVE CESAR!)

I deal with Fido from next door, too, so I know how hard it can be to maneuver around the owners and work in ways they can easily understand. I really train far fewer dogs than people. I train people, assisted by their dogs.

Ahh. Good, considering the type of work that you do, I totally agree with you. A DD collar is a probably an inappropriate tool for most of your clients.

A DD collar, as you know, is meant to be on a dominant, handler aggressive dog, any time that dog is being handled, or may need to be corrected for dominance aggression. You wouldn't use a DD collar to correct fear aggression, of course not.

You say that you prefer "other means" of handling this type of dog. Within the strictures of what the tool is designed to be used for, is there some other technique that you use instead? I genuinely would like to know. Like I said before, I'm always interested in hearing new techniques.

It's pointless to argue that the DD collar shouldn't be used for what it shouldn't be used for, we all agree. It's called the "dominant dog collar" for a reason.

I love Cesar too & guess why??? He uses dominant dog collars. Sorry, had to inject a bit of levity.

Dominance rarely causes aggression, sure if unchallenged. The issue is the dominant dog will become aggressive if challenged.

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

DD collar because I find something intimately wrong with restricting an animals air supply as a punishment.

So, go find someone with a really dominant handler aggressive dog, take the leash, pop the prong collar and then offer the dog a cookie when he comes up the leash. Then while he's chomping down on your hand, hit that e-collar remote and you will probably start to feel even more pain in your hand as the dog directs his pissed offness into his bite. No good? OK have your buddy correct the snot out of him with a prong collar! Whats that? He's not letting go? He's growling and shaking his head harder you say?

Well MAYBE IF HE COULDNT BREATHE HE MIGHT LET GO!

Then go call a hand surgeon and see if they can make your hand usable again. Do you have good medical???

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

DD collar because I find something intimately wrong with restricting an animals air supply as a punishment.

So, go find someone with a really dominant handler aggressive dog, take the leash, pop the prong collar and then offer the dog a cookie when he comes up the leash.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I was secretly hoping you'd pop into this thread, Mike!