Quote: jenni williams

I do think dogs perceive physical strength and weakness, and at least in my case, it definitely comes into play. My dog wasn't remotely protective w/my ex...a 240lb guy. W/me, he's Mr.Alert. Maybe I don't exude leadership, or maybe he simply realizes that he's physically more capable of defense.

I think this is an instance of a sort of bond somewhat combined with possessiveness. I feel that dogs can and will view a human as an "equal" in the alpha possition as they would view a mate, without the "sexual/reproduction" part. Depending on the dog, the handler, and the situation, I do not view this as a bad thing. A dog that views the opposite sex handler as an equal will be obedient, with be attentive, will be closely bonded, and will be possessive/protective over that person.

In my observation most PPDs are not protecting the handler, they are reacting to aggression/danger/threat from the helper that is directed at the dog, initiated in defense work that conditions the dog to see the helper as a fighting partner. The catch is that the cue/release for the dog is the handler being touched/assaulted, the dog is not going for the helper because it just saw it's alpha get taken down, it is going for the helper because it has been conditioned to respond with aggression towards this "fighting partner" upon physical engagement of the helper and handler or at command. If that makes any sense. In essence, the dog is not being possessive or protective over you, it is defending itself.

I may get some eyebrows for that one, keep in mind that is my observation and my opinion based on possessive and protective behavior being dominance based, resource guarding/territorial behavior etc. BUT the possessive behavior can come in the form of a dog being protective over it's handler if that handler is viewed as an equal, without the dog being dominant over the handler. The only time an alpha will not defend it's mate/equal is when dominance battles are occuring between same sex members in the pack and another female is attempting to gain dominance over the alpha female, or another male over the alpha male, etc.

Ok, Grain of salt please everyone! I could be totally completely excruciatingly and dead wrong about my view regarding PPD's and the "protection" aspect of it. I don't think I am, but I am open to discussion on the matter lol.

Anyhow. I don't think your boy views you as incapable, nor do I think he exactly viewed your ex as perfectly capable - perhaps you are just more valuable to the dog :wink: Your dog may very well consider you a leader and have no dominance issues or rank problems and be perfectly obedient and still be protective/possessive. There can be a fine line between "this is MY HUMAN!!" possessiveness that is purely a dominance/territorial/resource guarding, versus "get away from my mate!" which is possessive, but does not mean the dog is dominant over you.

Of course, for any issue you think may be a dominance issue, getting back to basics in ground work is never a bad thing.

Ai, for some reason I feel like I make no sense today!

I feel that I bond closer to my dominant males, as the role of alpha over a dominant dog is not a given, you have to earn the dog's respect and trust which bonds it closer to you than with a dog that trusts, loves, and respects everybody.

I've definitely formed the closest bonds with the two most dominant male dogs that I've had; one being my current Doberman. Both had/have been very respectful toward me, and probably wouldn't be seen as dominant while I'm around; but both would concern me around other people if I were not there. With a previous dog, possessiveness was evidenced by him lifting his leg on a former boyfriend. Though I agreed entirely with this dog's opinion, I wasn't in the room to prevent it. I felt kind of bad, but I'll admit to laughing a bit though

I think it's really interesting about the opposite sex handler/dog dynamic. I had never thought of it before, but now being aware of it makes me realize that I always have worked the best and had the best relationships with male dogs; especially the dominant ones. I agree with Jennifer that all of the time spent working and maintaining the role of alpha with these dogs leads to a deeper level of understanding and trust that can't be taken for granted.

I have a tendency to only own male animals, though I do have, and have had, females of various species and did not love them any less. I just find that a closer bond and fewer challenges can come from dogs of the opposite sex as the handler. Dominant dogs are always concerned with rank, don't get me wrong, but dogs in general are more likely to challenge and initiate rank issues with anything of the same sex within the pack, as it is more natural.

With that said, females are more likely to reject the leadership of a male than a male is with a female. This is because in the end, despite/in spite of rank, the female does generally decide who is qualified to breed. The mentality is such that only the best blood from the strongest males gets passed on, and so you will see more female dogs exhibiting dominance over male dogs, whereas a male dog is less picky, and often not picky at all, about who it mates with. The females of most (if not all) species is the one who selects the males based on varying factors.

The mating theme here is all looking at dog to dog interaction, obviously, but still translates over to human handlers as a female will test the male handler in order for him to prove his ability to be the leader, be the dominant male.

Us girls are just picky lil wenches! :laugh:!

I tend to like my dogs dominant, personal preference. I do not like dogs that will listen to, obey, love, and respect anybody and everybody - but I also do not like dogs that will react aggressively out of dominance. It can be a fine line.

As with Kristel, I notice a stronger bond with my dominant male dogs than with any female, dominant or otherwise.

Try and think of it in this perspective...in a pack, the dominant male is over the entire pack, he serves as peace keeper and disciplinarian, however, who is it in the pack that can usually rock his world? The alpha female, as he knows where he bread is buttered. Definitely a resource and certainly a respect for her a paramount. Does she take crap off of him? Heck no! Most females rule the roost! So, a fair, consistent and powerful female is what I think a male would most respect and want to protect.

Robbin - correct, but I will ad in one addition - yes the alpha is the disciplinarian in most aspects and by being the alpha controls a lot of situations but it is actually the omega that acts primarily as the peace-keeper in the pack. The alpha will stop a situation with his dominance, as a command, a "you are not fighting on my turf" which depending on the pack members fighting can escalate into a dominance challenge at the alpha. The omega is the one that acts like a total moron, a huge goofball, and dissipates the aggression, appeasing everybody and essentially "lightening the mood."

and edited to Ad: Hehehe the buttered bread reference was great.

Edited by Jennifer Marshal (12/04/2007 11:06 PM)
Edit reason: PS

* deleted *

Edited by Connie Sutherland (01/01/2008 07:54 PM)
Edit reason: will post to new thread

Hi David, welcome to the board.

It may be better if you start another thread since your situation is a bit different then what this thread is discussing. It will make it easier for others to see and respond to your situation. JMO

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Robbin - correct, but I will ad in one addition - yes the alpha is the disciplinarian in most aspects and by being the alpha controls a lot of situations but it is actually the omega that acts primarily as the peace-keeper in the pack. The alpha will stop a situation with his dominance, as a command, a "you are not fighting on my turf" which depending on the pack members fighting can escalate into a dominance challenge at the alpha. The omega is the one that acts like a total moron, a huge goofball, and dissipates the aggression, appeasing everybody and essentially "lightening the mood."

this is great! .....not that luc acts like a total moron or anything, but....it's clear what his position is
(i'm getting better at picking up on stuff. on our xmas time away, my mother said 'i don't understand why teagan will stare at me and not look at away but luc just looks quickly and then won't always meet my eyes'...well...)

How can I change this post to another forum. sorry for the incorrect post Dave

 Quote: david d ganus

How can I change this post to another forum. sorry for the incorrect post Dave

Well, this forum is fine..... just a new thread.

Go here:
http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/postlist/Board/17


Click "new topic". Start new topic. I have PM'd you your post so you could copy and paste it into your new thread and have to retype the whole thing.