Lonny B. wrote:A combo of Prey and defense, create fight drive, which is defined as the intensity of prey with the power of defense.

I think "fight drive" is a combination of prey and active aggression. Active aggression is where a dog will fight for food, territory, a partner. Reactive aggression is where a dog will react and try to defend himself against a dog that shows active aggression: reactive aggression comes close to "defense drive"
Active aggression is not present in all dogs and when present it does not normally show up untill the dog is 18 months old.
Reactive aggression is available in every dog: the will to survive by showing another dog that he/she will defend him/her self.

Kevin:

The word subconscious and stimuli are the two key words in the definition of drive. Think of a persons sex drive. This is determined in a male by the amount of testosterone among other hormones present in the body, not be reading a book. Learning to work a dog’s drives is what bite work is all about. There is a great thread on this in The Use Of A Tug. So I won’t repeat everything again. It takes a lifetime to fully understand and manipulate these drives. In my opinion the number one thing that sets Ed apart from others is his total understanding of a working dog’s drives. I can’t begin to tell you how many times I finally thought I got it only to be dumbfounded. It is so frustrating. And as to why are so many drives revolve around a pack. The pack is what makes a dog a dog. The pack is everything to a dog. He relies on the pack for food, safety, companionship, ect… If you want to really know what makes a dog tick. I always suggest studding the wolf.

Rik:
Good post. I agree with your thoughts but not your definitions. Not every dog has a defensive drive. Almost all American bred show lines have little to no defensive drive. They will turn and run in the face of real danger. This is because this drive has been bred out of them for show purposes. As to fight drive Ed has a great article on this but I will say one thing. Ed wrote that once you hear a dog bark in fight you will never forget it. I have only heard this in person once. Let me tell you I still feel a chill come down my spine every time I think of it. I compare it to see Michael Jordan fly in the air for a dunk. That is how rare it is. In it’s pure form.

Vince P. wrote: Not every dog has a defensive drive. Almost all American bred show lines have little to no defensive drive. They will turn and run in the face of real danger. This is because this drive has been bred out of them for show purposes.

Vince, I think defence is available in every dog. If a dog has a chance to flee for a threat he will do so, if he cannot flee he will try to defend himself! The will to survive is in every dog, you can teach a dog to use this in his advantage.
We all know of the dog that has no interest to bite the decoy with a sleeve/bite suit. People still use the stress/flank technique to make the dog react defensively and use this to teach a dog to react the next time a little bit quicker and even have the dog anticipate. Then it is just a matter of skills of decoy and handler to make the dog look "nice" whenever a trheat that he recognises occurs

Rik:

I enjoy reading your posts and love different points of view. But most dogs have little no defensive drive. Most breeds like the Golden Retriever do not posses this gene and some like the doberman Pitcher have been bred out. Biting out of fear and biting out of defense are two totally different things. It would much too long to explain this in detail so I will direct you to two sources.

1- Ed's article on German Bloodline Dogs Vs. American Bloodline Dogs

2- Ed's article on Understanding the Drives of Protection Training

The following is a quote (By Ed Frawley Copyright 1996) from it "This willingness to defend himself is an inherited characteristic. It cannot be trained into the dog no matter how hard you try. If a dog has not inherited the defensive gene there is no way we are going to make this dog a protection dog. A few good examples of this are most labs, golden retrievers, huskies or other such breeds. These dogs just don't carry the gene for protection work. The most that can be expected from these dogs is dog that will bark at strangers. But when threatened , they will go into avoidance and run."

Keep the good posts commimg Rik!

I have a couple of comments here. If a golden retriever turns tail and runs when faced with danger I believe that dog is in serious drive. It has simply chosen flight instead of fight. If you have a dog who has only been trained in "prey" drive, what is going to happen if one day that dog is faced with a serious situation and the dog all of a sudden doesn't feel quite so confident? I would say it would be in defensive drive then and must decide fight or flight. Since it has never been trained in that, who knows how it will react.

Personally, I don't understand how a person could think a dog has fifteen or twenty drives. That is like saying when I have sex I am in sex drive, then I go to sleep and I am in sleep drive. I get up the next morning and and brush my teeth, now I'm in brush drive. When I eat I'd be in eat drive and when I drink I'd be in drink drive! Etc., etc, etc.

Why not just say the dog is serious or the dog is not. Why not say we need to COMMUNICATE with the dog instead of saying we need to bribe him by using his toy drive?

Something I've never been very clear on is tracking drive and air scent drive. If a dog's natural mode of tracking is a combination of the two, why isn't there just one drive for tracking, ie. why are they separated into two separate drives? Is it because sport requires footstep tracking?

Catherine:

First, look at the wolf. It does exactly what you are saying. It uses a combination of nose down and air scent. The reason it does this is a combination of a lot of things. But mostly it has to do with the age of the track it is following. And the direction of the wind. If the track is fairly new there is a lot of scent in both the ground and air around the track. To maintain a good speed with a fairly good chance to catch is`s prey it will use both nose down in the hard parts of the track, and will use air scent whenever possible to keep a higher pace and close in to it`s prey. And if the wind is ideal(towards the wolf)you could see it skip parts of the track and go directly for air scent,this means cutting corners and zigzagging, especially in the last part of the track were the distance to the prey is short.

You could also see this in an experienced police dog. This behavior is partly experience in the dog, and some is skills tought to him by the handler. What I think is important to remember is that one will often have at least two kinds of tracking. The first will be the "manhunt" where the track is not so old max.1-2 hours, but often much fresher. The main goal in this kind of tracking will be to keep the speed so high that the handler and dog can actually catch up with the person you are "hunting for".
The other kind of track will occure when the age of the track can be several hours long, and the main goal is to actally follow the precise track in hope of reaching a final point where the bad guy has stopped and went into cover(house/car/cabin. this kind of track wil mostly be done nose down because of the age of the track. Most of the scent will be on the ground or just above it. And a nose down tracking will often give the dog a opportunity to find things the bad guy cold have dropped or thrown away during his escape. And tings you find in the track are likely to be evidence(weapons/money/personal belongings and so on).

Hope this was a little bit helpful?!

Vince P. wrote: Biting out of fear and biting out of defense are two totally different things. It would much too long to explain this in detail so I will direct you to two sources.

Vince, please explain what the difference is between biting out of fear and biting out of defense.

Rik Wolterbeek

Mika,

Yes that was helpful, thank you.

Kevin:

When a dog chooses to run rather than fight you “can” say he is in serious drive. Why “can” because not everyone considers avoidance a drive. But that is a true statement. Now to your comment on training a dog in prey methods only. I have never heard of anyone suggesting that a dog is only trained in prey work. Where did you ever get such an idea? Who advocates this type of training? Prey work is foundation work used for later training. I spent some time trying to answer you last thought without sounding sarcastic. But I am having trouble. As to why train a dog through drive rather than communicating with him. I guess it’s because I don’t know how to speak dog. (I hope you took that as a joke rather than an insult.!)

Rik:

One of the biggest misconceptions with dogs is that when a dog raises it’s hackles and shows it teeth while growling excessively is that this is one tough dog? No. That is one insecure dog. It is trying to look tough so it does not have to fight and hopes to scare his aggressor away. One of the ultimate goals in protection work is to develop fight drive. This is only done through a systematic approach to bite development starting with prey and progressing to defense. It is like a full circle. When you see a dog in prey his body posture, his tail and a higher pitch bark is present. Later in defense his posture changes and his bark is deeper. And if your lucky enough to complete the circle and develop fight drive his posture, tail and bark resembles prey once again. This is no easy task. I have been to Schutzhund nationals where I have seen none of the dogs in serious fight drive.