Quote: steve strom

This almost seems like a "lust for glory" Norman.

Training for titles?

Kind of an inside joke.

If you feel that this dog is weak it occurs to me that you look at protection training thorough a herders eyes as the Boerboel or any mastiff for that matter, does not have the same behavior triggers as does a herder. It also occurs to me that anyone would have difficulty knowing the difference between drive building, because more is wanted and the necessity for drive building because the dog is weak. But in all fairness knowing that difference, is very difficult to divine, just from a video. Moreover, I am not being touchy as you suggested, just disappointed, when I read generalizations from knowledgeable people, such as all (fill in the blank) breeds are (fill in the blank). These types of broad brush conclusions in an effort to sustain ones conclusion tells me a lot more about the person than what is written. Permit me a metaphor. When I was in grade school, math word problem answers were in the back of the book. When I got stuck making sense out of the problem, I would look in the back of the book for an answer and then try to make the question fit it. I got a good grade but never understood word problems as well as I would have if I would have only figured them out myself. Norman

Norman, what about when those generalizations by knowledgeable people are based on experience, not just looking to the back of the book?

 Quote: Norman Epstein

I am not being touchy as you suggested, just disappointed, when I read generalizations from knowledgeable people, such as all (fill in the blank) breeds are (fill in the blank). These types of broad brush conclusions in an effort to sustain ones conclusion tells me a lot more about the person than what is written. ....

I hope that I am throwing water and not gasoline on this when I say that I read Will's comments as encouraging and good-spirited.

 Quote: Will Rambeau

So you're close, keep training and get that full SchH I title and I'll be singing your praises, rest assured! .... you are to be sincerely commended for going this far already, you are no doubt going to be the first to place a real title on this breed, and that's something to be really proud of when it happens!

Good luck!

P.S. About Will's experience --- I think that Steve is right about the difference between generalizations based on hearsay or a small sampling, and generalizations based on years' of wide experience.

I saw generalizations based on experience, tempered with encouragement to buck the odds!

Let’s see Connie, Mr. Rambeau doesn’t consider the title we have earned, the Schutzhund *A*, real working title even though it has the same obedience and protection routine as the Schutzhund one which he apparently does consider a "real" title. He then goes on to say that although my dog is weak and needed help from the decoy just to get that far, it is still better than the rest of the Boerboel’s he has seen, *have seen* being the operative term. And then commends me for taking this piece of crap as far as I have and as soon as I earn a real title he will give me my just rewards, and you think this is being supportive and encouraging and in good spirit. Regarding generalizations you IMO shouldn't make them about a breed you don't know much about. By Mr. Rambeau's own admission he has not worked many. For the record all type protection breeds work differently and he knows that. And by the way he is not the only one with experience. I hope he does not considered this response, pissy.

 Quote:

For the record all type protection breeds work differently

Hey Norman, I have an honest question about this. You've titled other breeds,so in what ways would your boerboel match up to them? As I watch the different breeds work and notice the differences I'm always curious about the strong points and weak points especially compared to German Shepherds and Malinois. Thanks.

 Quote: norman epstein

Let’s see Connie, Mr. Rambeau doesn’t consider the title we have earned, the Schutzhund *A*, real working title even though it has the same obedience and protection routine as the Schutzhund one which he apparently does consider a "real" title. He then goes on to say that although my dog is weak and needed help from the decoy just to get that far, it is still better than the rest of the Boerboel’s he has seen, *have seen* being the operative term. And then commends me for taking this piece of crap as far as I have and as soon as I earn a real title he will give me my just rewards, and you think this is being supportive and encouraging and in good spirit. Regarding generalizations you IMO shouldn't make them about a breed you don't know much about. By Mr. Rambeau's own admission he has not worked many. For the record all type protection breeds work differently and he knows that. And by the way he is not the only one with experience. I hope he does not considered this response, pissy.

Norman, wait, please don't put words in my mouth. I've done helper work with 11 Boerboels, and that's as many as any helper in this country, period.
So as far as your "being seen" comment, let me know if anyone else has worked more than me, ok?

And of the eleven Boerboels that owners had brought to me for serious protection evaluation, everyone of them ran off the field. Everyone. That speaks *volumes*.
Now hardly anybody works them as a breed, and then everyone that I've encountered was weak, what am I left to think?

And as far as the SchH A, most serious SchH handlers were against it, for good reason - it tends to draws the type of handlers that won't don't the work, and it harkens back to the days when yahoo's would show up to a club just looking for protection training and not do the other portions of the required work.
Most clubs hated this kind of club members, and those that didn't ended up getting their clubs over run with the "sic'em" dogs..........I saw that happen more than once, and a lot of handlers that have been around a while have seen it too.

And sorry, yes, your dog required a lot of activation from the helper to bark at all - I realize that it's a training video, but you open yourself up to comments by posting them, so get over it, ok?

We have a boerboel who comes to board at the kennels. I don't go near the dog because he just plain doesn't like me. One of the very dog experienced managers says I have too much of a dominant personality. Even people he likes have to be careful to not bend over him or appear to threaten him. I have no doubt that this dog would seriously injure anybody who tried to work him in defense, bite suit or not. BUT he is not a vicious snarling beast either. He's one of my managers favorite dogs. I think the breed has the potential to be a working dog but the one I know has pretty much zero prey drive. I don't know enough to say whether he would work out in dog sports or as a PPD. I do know enough to say that there are probably other breeds out there that are better suited for them.

Mr. Rambeau wrote:

"Norman, wait, please don't put words in my mouth. I've done helper work with 11 Boerboels, and that's as many as any helper in this country, period. So as far as your "being seen" comment, let me know if anyone else has worked more than me, ok?"

Again that's as many helpers that you know, but to respond to your question I'll give you two that you don't know. Bill "Hollinger out of Virginia a ring, schutzhund, and pp decoy and David Harris of Harris Ranch Boerboels who tests all of his dogs and many others and that number is, and I am being kind, well over your 11 and I have tested at least seven. Here's what we agree on, as I said in my original post the the breed overall is not in good shape and I came to that conclusion, not by how many Boerboels I have seen run, but more importantly how there breed stock has been selected in the last 20 years.

Mr.Rambeau wrote:

"And as far as the SchH A, most serious SchH handlers were against it, for good reason - it tends to draws the type of handlers that won't don't the work, and it harkens back to the days when yahoo's would show up to a club just looking for protection training and not do the other portions of the required work."

Look most serious schutzhund handlers can't agree on anything. It is said that the only thing three schutzhund handlers can agree on is what the third is doing wrong. Your above assertion, regarding a lack of work or collections of "sic'em" dogs for handlers who try for this degree is not correct. However it would be correct if the Sch A did not have the same *obedience* and protection routines, requiring the same work to teach those disciplines, as does the Sch 1, but they do. The dog must also pass the BH as does every dog that tries for a Sch 1. Therefore IMO you are overreaching in order to sustain incorrect conclusions. However, what is accurate, is to say there is not as much work involved as a Sch 1, because there is no tracking but but it is not accurate to say as you did, that it (the Sch A) tends to draw handles who don't want to do the work. As you saw in my tracking videos I did the work and I am not alone.

Mr. Rambeau wrote:

"Now hardly anybody works them as a breed, and then everyone that I've encountered was weak, what am I left to think?"

I have previously wrote in this thread, that the breed is not in good shape, but as I also wrote, times are changing. And in a effort to be accurate it becomes necessary to go outside of what *you* know based on what *you* have seen, in order to find correct Boerboels and or to acknowledge there existence. There are now breeders and handlers both here and in Europe and Australia that are now working and breeding correct Boerboels, maybe not breeding and selecting breed stock for schutzhund but selecting those that can perform there function and that is a balanced all-round farm work, protecting there families if called upon. Please understand the Boerboel is not my breed of choice the GSD is. That said, I don't believe that schutzhund is the best breed specific test for the Boerboel, however there work is.

Mr. Rambeau wrote:

"And sorry, yes, your dog required a lot of activation from the helper to bark at all"

Don't be sorry because I know that's not accurate. I was hoping more from you and one thing I would suggest to you is what many veteran schutzhund trainers have told me, and that is not to be so sure about a dog that you have never worked. If you like please get in touch with Chris Aucoin who has done a lot of helper work in Europe for some very well know breeders and some USA national events or Randall Hoadley who is a teaching helper and Vice President of Schutzhund USA for there opinion regarding your above, as they both have worked the dog many times. I particularly am interested in having you get there opinion of the dog in general and especially him needing lot of activation from the helper to bark at all. I will gladly give you there email address off line. Norman Epstein