<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Dobe,

I have yet to see a dog that never needs correction. Even well trained dogs need a periodic reminder. Another problem with early introduction of a correction collar is that dog becomes used to it and if you need to increase the correction it will take a larger and larger increase to get the same effect, a hard necked dog. By teaching the puppy with very minimal corrections that is much less likely to happen.

Appreciate the info, will keep it in mind. thanks for clarifying, this is new to me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dobe, I think Richards second post is a very good one. I can understand how it is possible to misunderstand the use of correction collars. With all the stuff out there on using them for training you would think that they are the sh-t. But when you are dealing with a puppy they can be, and are, very damaging in the training process. As Richard tried to point out there are ways to use a dogs natural drives to induce him to work for you. The correction collar is something that you only use in a later stage of training. First you must teach the dog, with inducive methods what it is that you want him to do. Next after the dog is clear on what is going on, then you use corrections. You don't use leash corrections on pups. You don't use the correction collar to guide the dog around in heeling or around the house because you want them to go up stairs. That is bad training. It is bad news man. The problems that you will encounter later are going to take more time to correct than the little extra time it will take now to use positive inducement to train. And if you are planning on training in Schutzhund or Protection then forget it. No joke, I'm not slaming you here. Pups are like babies, would you put a prong on a baby? You should really read and think about what Richard is saying here. It seems like you are ignoring the important parts of what he is saying. Put your prong away for a while. Try using some other methods. See how they work. I know it will end up better for you. There are lots of books out there on positive training. They all can help. I think you have got caught up in the prong collar hype. Yes it will produce results, as you see, but not the kind of results that you want in your companion or protector.

Are you hearing this, are ya feeling us? I hope so, the smartest people are the ones that can ask for advice and then take it and use it. No correction while the pup is young, use positive methods to induce him to do what you want. You will really see a difference, not right away but later. You can always see the adult dog that was hammered from a young age, or pulled and jerked around. The spirit is crushed, the obedience is crap, and the owner is unhappy.

I would have sent this in a private mail, but I seem to be on your ignore list. Hmmm... that may not be that bad of an idea. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

What's this?......VanCamp....the voice of reason? Is this the NEW AND IMPROVED VanCamp?LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

now I'm going to puke

Don't you two jerks get excited. I just thought that the softer touch would be necessary to get Dobe to hear me. If this doesn't work, then I'm gonna slam-dunk Dobe back into the CBA. (or in this case, back to some show discussion board)

Just kidding. . . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I really just want to help another dog person out with their dog. I guess I am going soft. . .

Dobe, what the others are saying is the truth. You can spot a dog trained with coercive methods at too young of an age a mile away! The Lab that I own was adopted by me at 1.5 years of age. He was head shy, hand shy, reluctant to follow any commands, not because he didn't know them, but because he feared correction. I have had to go back to square one with this dog and train him like he is a puppy, with positive inducement only. I have only now reintroduced the prong (he is 3 now), with good results. It only takes a very light touch to get his attention. I can get away with using his buckle collar most of the time. But when I first got this dog, obedience was NOT a fun happy time for him, and I have had to work really really hard to get him where he is now. I have had to develop a relationship of trust with him, because he never had learned to trust before.

Oh, and the other thing, he was not well socialized in his first year. I can tell by the way he responds to strangers. I worked with him and was able to get him past most of his shyness, but then he had to be confined to the house for two months after surgery. When I took him back out recently, it was like all that socialization I did with him had never happened. I'm having to go back to square one, but I have already seen results even after only a few days.

I am under no illusions that my dog is "fixed" or even "fixable". All my hard work is just a band-aid. Apply stress, and the dog will crumble. I must always, always, be in control of every situation I put my dog into, for the rest of his life. His previous owners ruined a perfectly good dog with poor training. Period.

The point of my message to you: Early training and socialization (or lack of) will affect the dog for the rest of its life. You can go back and try to correct mistakes, but it is much harder and much more work than just doing it right the first time around, AND, you may not be able to undo the damage done, no matter how much work you put in. Please listen to these guys, they know what they are talking about (at least, in this case <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

Dobe:

Richard just tagged me so I guess it is my turn. The trick to training is to hide the fact that you are training at all. You give a dog two roads the one to the left leads to no drive satisfaction while the one to the right leads to drive satisfaction. It is up to the dog to choose which road he takes. In this scenario there is no drive loss in fact most of the time there will be drive increase. One of the most basic and important principles to working with dogs is a term that Richard mentioned which is Opposition Reflex. Which is a hard concept for a beginner to grasp because humans do not posses it. It is the reason why a TD wakes up in the middle of the night screaming “Loose leash! Loose leash!”. It can also be used to your advantage in protection training while the dog is on the sleeve. I would suggest that you pack away your prong and find out what drive is the best one for your dog to use in training. Then I would set up a situation where if your dog performs the desired response he satisfies this drive and if does not then failure will replace your prong collar with no loss in drive or bond with you. Why because he choose to take the wrong path not you so he has only himself to blame. And next time he will try that much harder to achieve your goal. Now I tag you because it is up to you to put these principles in place and report back to us on your success. Good luck!