julie, I dont think that you can really "know" that dogs came from the line they claim even when they are registered unless you do DNA testing. I say this with a smile because of an article I read recently about how easy it is to register a litter with the AKC ( I dont know about the SV and the rest) where you could switch a mixed breed into a litter and have it registered under those parents i.e. "pure" bred, and this is the problem with putting *complete* confidence in papers....

Thanks...I was wondering how useful a dominant dog would be if the handler couldn't control it. But hey, when one is not familiar one has to ask right?

I know. People swap papers all the time (jerks). But I would be suspicious about an expensive dog from a nice line that is not registered SOMEWHERE (not necessarily AKC)...The nice thing is DNA numbers are right on the pedigree for my dog. You'd think people would prefer to write down the lineage somehow in an official fashion rather than just pass it around by word of mouth. Or is there some kind of DNA document trail to ensure the dogs are who they purport to be?

this is true. there would be a reason why they werent registered anywhere...IMO

about dominance, so if we take the ideal dog, the cream of the crop for police/army use, is that dog going to be dominant and thats what pushes it to the top or does the dominant and the non-dominant dog have equal potential, if they were identical in all factors other than that?

Mary, I think the dominance factor relies more on the handler and training than the dog itself. I do not believe a dominant "alpha dog" would be a better working dog strictly due to the dominance factor.

One thing to remember is that rank is established with every dog and every person it interacts with - whether the dog has a dominant temperament or not, someone is going to be dominant and someone is not. It is the way of the dog.

A working dog is trained and handled in a way that makes it more challenging to a novice or inexperienced dog person no matter if the dog is naturally dominant. We handle and train our dogs to be a certain way and a dog that is used to consistent and clear pack structure in the hands of someone who is inconsistent or does not follow pack structure rules etc will have issues with the dog.

A dog that is not dominant aggressive but had solid stable drives and is suitable for working in competent hands has just as much chance of being a successful and good working dog as a dominant dog.

Dominant dogs may actually not do as well in the general sense as there are not too many people experienced and capable of working them to their full potential. People tend to be heavyhanded with dominant dogs.. and yes they do require firm and consistent handling but dominant dogs are hardwired to respond to aggression with aggression, so being too harsh and heavyhanded is like shooting yourself in the foot. You are going to create more problems than you think you are solving.

Edited by Jennifer Marshal (02/24/2008 11:38 PM)
Edit reason: add

 Quote: andrew macleod

Is there possibly such a thing as too much dog? I have been speaking with a friend about the lines of mal's that we are breeding. Very dominant, agressive and handler hard / rank drive mal's. The question that i'm asking is for security dogs. You don't want a dog that will break on the job. So you must have dominance as well as aggression. But with these traits bring handler hardness? What are peoples ideas on this???

Andrew, the problem with this type of dog is that 99.99% of people have no experience with them. By no experience I mean "has never even seen a dog like this", so it is incredibly difficult for them to grasp the concept of how exactly these dogs are. Without seeing it, you can't understand it. I was trying to touch on these types of dogs in a post on z Pohranicni Straze Czech dogs a little while back. Steve Zorn started to debate the need for the existance of these types of dogs, and unfortunately thats a pretty common viewpoint, along with his comment of "We have so many dogs over here we don't need his dogs." Unfortunately thats the type of attitude that makes the type of dogs you're talking about so rare in the US.

To me, the short answer is: Yes there is such a thing as "too much dog". But it depends entirely on the skill of the handler. I'm sure you've seen how the KNPV folks train. They don't use clickers LOL. They want their dogs to be exactly like what you see from the Rambo lines. I believe its my friends father that bred Rambo, but she throws so many names at me I get confused

Your advantage is that if you sell a pup, people will call you to take the dog back. The reason many breeders of these types of dogs won't sell to the US easily is they worry people won't spend $1000 to send the dog back, and just put a great dog down when he becomes too difficult to handle. Like I said, 99.99% of people haven't even seen a dog like it, and the ones you try to explain it to will either think you're exagerating, or tell you the dogs are unstable, fear biters, unreliable, not clear headed etc etc etc.

The dominance level of some of these dogs is on a whole different niveau.

 Quote: Andrew Macleod

On the other hand alowing the dog to make the mistake will give you the opportunity to correct him. This will stat to teach the dog correct rules for when guests come over. If you don't give the dog the opportunity to make the mistakes he will never learn what he can and can't do!

Andrew,

You posted this is another thread and I am wondering about it.....Do you start training with compulsion training right away, or do you teach the dog through positive reinforcement first and like Cindy mentioned, place corrections as needed?

Or do you set the dog up to fail right from the get-go so you can correct it? Even though the dog does not know right from wrong yet?

 Quote: andrew macleod

"When you say contract what do you mean? Contract for ability or performance? Or for liability on is the dog should become to much to handle?"

Andrew,

Here is yet another quote made by you in August of 07.
I am not sure I understand why you were inquiring what to have on a contract? If you are selling to the military then I would think you would be able to tell others what to have on a contract....no offense, I am just curious as to why you would ask that?

Mike J Schoonbrood;

Thanks for the reply as I believe that you are on the same mind as me. I throught out a question and have read many peoples opinions about the topic. The amount of people that have commented about its the handler not doing the job etc. Yes that can be the case and most of the time it is! But also there are dogs that continuously chalange for the alpha spot. Rank drive! Now in regards to when I said break. I was talking about working dogs on the streets. In real life situations. Not on a field or training. Where you have to break up a fight or stop a robber!!! Now if you get attacked while working and the dog breaks you and the dog are in big troubble! As the people you are trying to stop now see that the protection dog you were using is now hiding behind you. Not protecting you. I was just curious on what people thought about "Too much dog?"

Carol Boche;

I just through out another view on that subject. I use clicker training on all my dogs. Even the dogs that I pick up from a young age for other people. Positive reinforcement is the best method of training that you can use with dogs. Or any animal for that matter. But with that as you would know comes negitave conditioning there are many books out there for clicker training that will help anybody understand it better then I could. But with out the dog making some mistakes it will never learn its boundries??? Or please correct me if im wrong? I do not clame to be the know all of everything just posting my opinion. The most important time in a dogs training is the first 16 weeks. Where all the puppy imprinting is done. This will drive the dog later on in its life. With the stimulating and working of the drives that you want. Prey drive, retrieval etc. With out these worked as a puppy it makes training harder later in life. Clicker training starts right away as soon as I get the puppy. Then with in 2 to 3 weeks the puppy is offering behaviours for clicks. This also help with food drive. Once again making training easier.

Now about the other post I was just asking questions as I live in a different country we have different rules. As you would expect. Over here there are not many contracts getting around that I have seen apart from people placing femailes to breed with making deals. I was curious about the legal side with how contracts are done over in the USA. Only out of intrest. I am surprised that it was brought up so long after???

Whoo........ LOL

Isn't free speech fun. >

Andrew what country are you in.