I personally wait until 13 months and get the official ofa done for cardiac, patella luxation, and the prelims on hips. If the vet does it I also get the first or second round of cerf done at the same time.
I personally don't do elbows on these little rascals.

 Quote: norman epstein

If a dog can hold up to the training necessary to climb that wall and then do it that dog is orthopedically sound. Therefore hard work and or testing is the only path to orthopedic soundness. E-ray’s to vet hips IMO should only be used as one tool but not the only tool.

But isn't part of the purpose of x-rays to keep from working your dog too hard if they have HD? (I'm not arguing, just asking). What if you aren't using your dog as a working dog, or you aren't a breeder? My dog will never take the 7 ft. fence test Are there other "tests" for people w/non-working GSD's besides x-rays?

 Quote: kori bigge

 Quote: norman epstein

If a dog can hold up to the training necessary to climb that wall and then do it that dog is orthopedically sound. Therefore hard work and or testing is the only path to orthopedic soundness. E-ray’s to vet hips IMO should only be used as one tool but not the only tool.

But isn't part of the purpose of x-rays to keep from working your dog too hard if they have HD? (I'm not arguing, just asking). What if you aren't using your dog as a working dog, or you aren't a breeder? My dog will never take the 7 ft. fence test Are there other "tests" for people w/non-working GSD's besides x-rays?

I've only seen the horror once of having a dog break down. That was enough. The idea of putting a dog over a 7 foot fence to see if they can do it seems wreckless. Reminds me of the old days of testing horses by running them over bad surfaces to see if they limp. Dogs will do things wrecklessly, are good at hiding pain, and it's our responsibility as handlers to keep our dogs safe and I think a little preventative screening goes a long way to that.
I think it's always a good idea to have imo the tests done for hips, cardiac, luxation, and cerf because it'll give you an accurate idea of what your dog can do, preventatives you can apply to known conditions that may come as a result, and what you should look for as your dog ages. I've even had these tests done on dogs who are not breeding stock and as a result it has altered the way I handle one dog daily because I don't want pressure on his knees to cripple him in his old age. I very likely will be starting him on joint suppliments early as well.

Kori, the purpose of a hip x-ray is to determine if your dog is predisposed to HD or if a breeder to eliminate HD from ones breed stock and supposedly if performed by all breeders, eliminate HD from there breed. The cause of HD is not so simple as geneticists tell us the cause is polygentic or having more than one source or origin. You asked "What if you aren't using your dog as a working dog, or you aren't a breeder"? Then testing for you is not a critical until your dogs happens to evidences symptoms of HD then a simple x-ray will do. "Are there other "tests" for people w/non-working GSD's besides x-rays?" Other than exercise or training that requires running, jumping and changing direction done over a long time frame, no. There is more than HD that will render your dog unable to perform. There is poor angulation, no work ethic and or the lack of the necessary drives to do the work, poor conformation brought about by standards written by well meaning folks that for the most part have never trained or worked the working breed they judge or champion. These show standards use as there template dogs that look like they might instead of dogs that actually have done the work of the breed. More interested in the shape of the head than what's in it.

 Quote: norman epstein

You asked "What if you aren't using your dog as a working dog, or you aren't a breeder"? Then testing for you is not a critical until your dogs happens to evidences symptoms of HD then a simple x-ray will do.

Again, I'm not arguing with you, but I have read that it's better to find out if a dog has HD before they are symptomatic, as proactive treatment and precautions (re: too much or the wrong kind of exercise, for example) can improve the quality of the dogs life as he/she ages. This for me is really the only reason I want to get x-rays on Kodee, as obviously he won't be bred and I don't plan to compete in sports with him. What are your thoughts re: proactive treatment of HD - does it work in your opinion?

Melissa wrote:

"The idea of putting a dog over a 7 foot fence to see if they can do it seems wreckless."

Don't worry Melissa because they won't be able to do it and that's the point, to find out, after all this is a working breed we are talking about. If they try and pull up lame then what would have ultimately occurred, did. The idea of breeding working dogs that can't or won't seems equally reckless to me.

Melissa wrote:

Dogs will do things wrecklessly, are good at hiding pain, and it's our responsibility as handlers to keep our dogs safe and I think a little preventative screening goes a long way to that.

They are not as good at hiding pain when being trained to go over a 7.5 foot wall or executing a long jump on an ongoing basis. If you are talking as a breeder then your responsibility is to find out. If you speaking as a pet owner I can see your point. I agree with the rest of your post.

Kori wrote:

<snip> "Again, I'm not arguing with you, but I have read that it's better to find out if a dog has HD before they are symptomatic"

If you are speaking as a breeder then the earliest you can find out the better. The dogs I referring to could do work but not arduous work on an ongoing basis. The result is you put in years of training only to find out later that the dog will be cripple if your training is kept up. There is only one way to create a useful dog and that is to breed it to another useful dog, there is no other way. My original point was that x-rays alone have not been proven as "the" way to eliminate HD, hard work however has been able to identity orthopedically weak dogs.

I am sorry Kori I didn't respond to your below.

"What are your thoughts re: proactive treatment of HD - does it work in your opinion?"

By work, do you mean that proactive treatment or precautions can substantially alter the onset of HD. No I don't believe they can because HD is polygenetic. Proactive treatments may lessen the symptoms of HD but because it's genetic I don't see how those treatments can stop it or make it go away. That said if a dog is on the borderline of HD these precautions IMO may play a part in lessing the severity of the disease, but no one can say for sure. It's good to remember that the mix of dogs that created the GSD were not treated with the care they are today were not given the quality of food they are today and the quality of medical care they are given today but today the GSD is not as healthy or agile as they once were. The difference? Then for obvious reasons only the fittest were bred now many dogs are bred that never should have been. The result is over 300 genetic diseases in our pure breeds.

 Quote: Norman Epstein

When that wall was removed at the behest of the show folks the orthopedic soundness of the GSD began to lessen. The Malinois breeders who by in large vet there dogs in French Ring do not x-ray, but the incidence of HD in the Malinois is negligible. Why? Because they do have a vertical wall (palisade) that can be as high as 7.5 feet.

The fallacy in your argument is that just because A happened and then B happened doesn't mean A caused B. Could there be or instances of HD in GSD's because of the over breeding compared to Mals (even in working lines). Maybe not but it seems silly to say that if the wall were added back in Sch then HD would decline.

Norman, I don't think you answered Kori's question. You are talking about the prevalence of hip dysplasia in the whole entire GSD breed and about breeding practises that may have contributed, and how X-Rays may or may not help discover and eliminate HD long term in a bloodline.

Kori is asking whether X-Raying *her specific dog* to find out its hip quality would be an advantage to know what kind of activity *her specific dog* can handle over its lifetime.

She also wants to know if there is an advantage to elbow X-Rays for the same reason. Then she can modify her dog's activity level IF NEEDED. How otherwise will she know IF the dog's activity level NEEDS to be restricted?

She has emphasized her dog is NOT a working NOR a schutzhund dog and she is NOT breeding him. It is not a breeding question, more of a health question.