Quote: Ashley Hiebing

I'm curious as to why the Vit E and fish oil need to be supplemented. Isn't there a more bioavailable source of them?

Like what?

 Quote: ashley hiebing

Now, the meat/bone ratio, is that the 80-10-10 for prey-model that I see often, or is there some other "better" set of percentages that I'm not aware of? I know that one shouldn't be quite so precise and shouldn't over-complicate things more than they need to be, but there's a lot I don't know and I don't want to screw this up anymore than I have to =P

You are absolutely correct that there's no need to complicate the one crucial ratio (calcium-phosphorous, or bone-meat), because meat "comes with" the right ratio.

A rabbit or a chicken, for example, is not just "prey model." It IS prey.

So if you replicate the approximate bone-to-meat ratio of the whole prey if you happen to be buying parts, then that's great. If you are buying the actual animal (like chicken halves or quarters or the whole thing), then you're covered, too. If the dog eats this whole chicken, for example, including the liver and/or heart, over a couple of days, then you have fed what you might call prey model, but is really rather more basic.

Oh, and if you are feeding parts that are low in muscle meat, you can just add some meat. When you start to introduce variety in protein profiles, that's the perfect opportunity to do it: a little lamb, a little ground beef, some fish.......

 Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: ashley hiebing

I'm curious as to why the Vit E and fish oil need to be supplemented. Isn't there a more bioavailable source of them?

Like what?

Well, the fish oil I suppose could be received from canned mackerel or something similar... but is there not a sufficient amount in the fish and that's why it needs to be supplemented?

As for the E (jeez, sounds like I'm talking about Ecstasy, lol), AFAIK one could get that from dark greens (which makes feeding veggies make more sense now), but that's about it. I must admit I'm a little nervous supplementing it because it's fat-soluble and I'm afraid of OD'ing my poor dog. Probably an unfounded fear.

On a side note, I know that my "teaching" the folks about pet nutrition is sinking in. A new fun activity my dad and I have when we go to the grocery store is trying to find the worst kibble on the shelves. "Ooh, look Ashley, we've got some ground yellow corn, and some corn gluten meal, and some soybean meal, and some 'meat and bone meal,' whatever that is..." "Yeah, and look, there's some animal fat preserved with BHA! Yum yum!" Ah, good times =)

Here is one of many threads on why fish oil and E are important:
http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=12&Number=172350&Searchpage=1&Main=17625&Words=chain+Connie+Sutherland&topic=0&Search=true#Post172350

A major factor is that dogs now eat grain-fed slaughter meat, which, unlike wild and range-fed meat animals, don't store substantial Omega 3s in their fat and muscle.

Bioavailable -- one way to define that would be "reaches the systemic circulation." Actual fish body oil isn't a supplement in the sense that manufactured multi-vitamins are; it's as much a food as the liver from a chicken is.

The vitamin E (preferably in the form of natural mixed tocopherols) is given with it because the Omega 3 EFAs (essential fatty acids) are delicate and easily degraded without the protection of vitamin E (and also protection from heat, light, and air, once it's separated from the fish meat).

There really is no modern diet, except for that of the very few people in the world who eat a diet based on oily fish, that is not short on long-chain Omega 3 EFAs (DHA and EPA).

BTW, a BIG high five to you, because you are persevering in the face of family opposition to give your dog the food that dogs were designed to eat: Meat and bones.

 Quote: ashley hiebing

Well, the fish oil I suppose could be received from canned mackerel or something similar... but is there not a sufficient amount in the fish and that's why it needs to be supplemented?

Yes, it could. Oily fish is great! You will see it in the Leerburg sample menus and in the dishes of my dogs.

It's too bad that the fish supply is dwindling, that farmed fish are loaded with contaminants and short on Omega 3s, and the wild fish that are free of heavy metals (mercury, arsenic) are few in number.

But yes: Those who eat a diet based on oily fish do indeed get their long-chaim Omega 3s "on the hoof," so to speak.

Most dogs do not eat sufficient fish to do that, and in fact are not "designed" to eat that much fish (another long subject). They do great with some fish in the diet, though, as long as it isn't for salmonids from west of the Cascades.

What they were designed to eat was prey with stores of Omega 3s in the fat and meat from eating grasses.... not grains.

 Quote: Ashley Hiebing

I must admit I'm a little nervous supplementing it because it's fat-soluble and I'm afraid of OD'ing my poor dog. Probably an unfounded fear.

You are absolutely correct about fat-soluble vitamins (and that concern is why we give fish body oil and not fish liver oil), except for E.

Even at ridiculous lab levels, there has not been found a canine OD level of E.

Nevertheless, keeping it at a reasonable level (see the link above) is, IMO, a wise move. Oversupplementing is something to avoid, IMO.

 Quote: ashley hiebing

... A new fun activity my dad and I have when we go to the grocery store is trying to find the worst kibble on the shelves. "Ooh, look Ashley, we've got some ground yellow corn, and some corn gluten meal, and some soybean meal, and some 'meat and bone meal,' whatever that is..." "Yeah, and look, there's some animal fat preserved with BHA! Yum yum!" Ah, good times =)

Ooooh ooooh, you know where to find a whole bunch of really bad ones all in one room!?

The vet's office waiting room!

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Ooooh ooooh, you know where to find a whole bunch of really bad ones all in one room!?

The vet's office waiting room!

Connie that is priceless.

Ashley
It sounds like your family is behind you on the raw feeding but they are still just a bit unsure about it, which is to be expected. It sounds like you have done a good job telling them about feedig raw.

Keep with it, Ashley, you're doing great! We all went through the same process in the beginning.

Believe me, even though the family may be giving you a little grief as you get this started, after they see the change in your dog, they'll be trying to convert everybody they run into, like it was their idea in the first place.

Mike