Calm moments during aggression is IMO an oxymoron. The dog may not be vocal but dominate body language is a precursor to aggression and that body language should be corrected, redirected or anything else that works on an ongoing basis but under no circumstances should this aggressive body language be rewarded even though the dog is not vocal. Why? Because the dog is still showing aggression. Don't believe me just ask the other dog. (G)

that's what i was wondering.

using teagan as my example, with her dog aggression - if i catch it quick, i can often redirect and while she may become slightly tense, she behaves. if i don't catch it (say i'm reading on the couch, she's looking out the window - cause i am pretty darn good at catching it now when we're outside, so this same sort of display/level of aggression generally won't occur, leaving aside that stupid dog who came to visit us in the yard), she goes ballastic. she doesn't have calm moments, unless you count pausing for breath. if i don't manage her, by removing her and redirecting her, she can become so agitated she runs in circles and than runs at the window - there really aren't any calm periods, and this is what i'm having trouble translating from the book.
(and it's why i focus on catching her quickly)

....on the otherhand - luc very clearly had fear issues, and he would obviously pause - not to say he wouldn't be nervous, but with him, he'd put on a display, and then sort of back up and wait to see if it worked, if the scary thing had gone away.

is it a function of the cause of the aggression? the dog's personality? or are there no true calm moments during aggression?

I would never reward my dog with a click or a treat for being calm after being aggressive. If I reward it's with 'good boy' or 'good leave it', and it's when we've walked by the (usually loose) dog (that started the whole thing anyway) for several seconds and I can see my dog really IS relaxed.

What is calm? Calm as relates to what? As relates to his previous state of aggression? Or is the dog truly relaxed. Calm moments during aggression? No.

Trying to redirect a dog that has begun to behave aggressively toward a dog (or person) with a treat or toy is, to me, a joke. And worse, is definitely perceived by the dog to be a reward. That is if he even pays attention to either item which is extremely doubtful since he's in drive, high drive.

Maybe a little obedience first before any reward at all. Heel, sit, something that will refocuse them.

Jennifer, just for giggles way not try it once. It'll be interesting to find out if either of the dogs will even take food at any time after their respective drives kick in, as well as how long after the fact does it take for them to even consider the treat.
That little experiment should answer some questions for you.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

Jennifer wrote:

"if i catch it quick, i can often redirect and while she may become slightly tense, she behaves".

You should not reward "slightly tense" only reward a relaxed body posture, because the dog while evidencing this behavior is still unsure and frightened therefore that behavior should not be reinforced. Set up a situation that will cause this behavior and just before it occurs, put the dog on a sit and *enforce* that. When the dog is calm then reinforce that.

steve, that makes sense.

randy....heh. not that i don't always trust your sense of humour (i kid, i kid). the thing is, teagan would be like 'food!? WTH lady, can't you see there is a dog out there!'. the few times i have watched her and not stepped in (which i highly suspect would be like what i would do when i treated her calm, if i could find a calm moment) - i'm not sure it's mentally good for her to reach that level of agitation. the den is part of an L with the dining area, attached to the kitchen, then out to the hall and pop back in to the den. she'll start running this full tilt, doing this weird whining growl, and then launch herself back at the window, and she is freaking out. luc - and they do well together despite her dog aggression and his lack of confidence around other dogs (awww, my brother was noting you can still see all the muzzle scars he came with, even though his fur is so much better) - gets freaked out and tries to retreat, he finds it stressful and she's not directing anything at him.

it would be interesting to see if i could pinpoint a calm moment, and what she would do if i offered her a treat though....

 Quote: norman epstein

Jennifer wrote:

"if i catch it quick, i can often redirect and while she may become slightly tense, she behaves".

You should not reward "slightly tense" only reward a relaxed body posture, because the dog while evidencing this behavior is still unsure and frightened therefore that behavior should not be reinforced. Set up a situation that will cause this behavior and just before it occurs, put the dog on a sit and *enforce* that. When the dog is calm then reinforce that.

sorry, i wrote everything together. i don't reward the tense behavior - i was just saying i can redirect her and she will behave, even if she doesn't like it. usually i praise her after we've left the situation and she's heeling by my side nicely. i was more saying - i would find it very difficult to find a calm moment.

 Quote: norman epstein

Jennifer wrote:

"if i catch it quick, i can often redirect and while she may become slightly tense, she behaves".

You should not reward "slightly tense" only reward a relaxed body posture, because the dog while evidencing this behavior is still unsure and frightened therefore that behavior should not be reinforced. Set up a situation that will cause this behavior and just before it occurs, put the dog on a sit and *enforce * that. When the dog is calm then reinforce that.

Don't forget that part. If you give her a command, Sit, Leave it, or anything else don't let her ignore it.

Steve has got it. You want to give the dog something to do, sit, down, whatever and reward THAT behavior and you want to do that BEFORE before your dog agresses or even shows signs of aggressing. Have your dog focused on his task and YOU and not on the object he is fearful of. After the dog agresses, it is way to late. Work at great distances from X and slowly decrease the distance. By association, he will learn that when he sees X and he sits and looks at you and is treated, seeing X will not be such a bad thing. You are teaching your dog coping skills. Again, this does not work for every dog. With major aggression problems you should work with an experienced behaviorist (which I am not).

JMO...Sandy