You have an 11 month old pup that you've only had for 4 weeks, that had very little (or no) pack structure training at his last home. I think you may be expecting too much, too soon.
If your pup has chewing issues, you can tether him to you to prevent him from grabbing inappropriate items. Also, redirecting to an appropriate chew item will give him something to release his chewing urges on.
You don't mention what you are doing as far as exercise, but getting the pup good and tired will improve his behavior in the house...

Be careful not to use the crate as punishment. This should be his haven and safe place...
You might want to read Ed's article on the theory of motivation in dogs to give you a better idea about why positive reinforcement (marker training) works so well. Marker training goes a long way in helping you to establish a bond with your pup, and is fun for both of you!

http://leerburg.com/pdf/theoryofmotivation.pdf (Motivation)

http://leerburg.com/pdf/markers.pdf (Marker Training)

Putting a prong on him to correct for chewing issues is overkill, IMO, and will really hurt the bond you are trying to establish with this pup.

Keep the leash on him when he's in the house. It gives you much more control. As you have discovered, your pup either doesn't understand you when you are giving him a verbal command, or your bond/pack leader position has not been established yet.

Edited by Lynne Barrows (03/14/2008 08:27 AM)
Edit reason: addded a link

I have read the long post where you were frustrated about the video only showing on leash dogs. you wanted to know if the dogs trained on a leash could ever be expected to behave off leash.

(I feel the same way sometimes!!! Especially with puppies!!)

My answer is yes.

You have only had this dog a month.

It takes a dog (adult dog anyway, with NO previous in the house experience) 3-6 months *minimum* to learn the house rules and manners and this is if you are consistent, patient and the dog has a solid routine and knows his routine. If you get a young pup (not the case here) it takes longer IMO. This is for dogs that were outdoor dogs and did not learn how to misbehave in the house.

Having the dog on leash initially will make it MUCH easier for the dog to learn the house rules, because there is less chance he can figure out what he can get away with and more opportunity for you to praise when good and redirect when "bad". He will get away with a LOT less if he is constantly being supervised and you are physically able to stop him from misbehaving immediately.

This is why Ed's dogs are on leash. Not to mention he has big, high drive, high energy dogs where if they were allowed total freedom in the house from day 1 with no control or restraint, they would test their limits in every way and learn VERY quickly that they don't have to listen if they don't want to ("who's going to make me?" and "first you have to catch me!"). Ed does not give them this opportunity.

I work with rescue/foster dogs, so I usually have a new dog that has to learn the rules. It is WAY easier to teach them if you can show them what you want, rather than shout at them, hoping they will be able to learn English and understand what you want.

Once the dog has learned the rules and has consistently demonstrated his ability to follow them, then yes they can EARN their freedom in small increments. Just like obedience. If he can't do the exercise (or have his freedom) with out mistakes, go back a step. Usually my adult dogs get a significant amount of freedom in the home after they have been with me at least 6 months.

DO NOT try and rush this process or you will only make it harder on yourself, as your adolescent male will be testing to see what he can get away with.

Don't forget, poodles are very smart and cockers can be stubborn. Why not give yourself the advantage while training your dog, rather than give him the upper hand? It is your house. He can earn the privilege to be free.

Just my two cents worth here. I am new to this site and I am not a trainer. Although I have had dogs all my life (which is a looong time) and have had some trained by professionals, I have never utilized the positive training that is offered here.

I got a new pup about 6 weeks ago at 6 months old (small breed, very energetic). I started tethering her and still do. After a few weeks I could drop her tether and she would stay right with me but after a few days, she would bound off, so back to right at my side.

It's really difficult for a dog to get into ANY trouble when they are right beside you. If I don't have time to watch her, it's back in the crate. Simple. With me or in the crate.

She looks at her crate as her little fifedom and doesn't think of it as punishment.

Also, the bond the tethering does is extraordinary. I am ALWAYS right there to correct her.

It sounds like your pup is maybe getting a little too much freedom and hasn't learned not to do bad behavior yet.

From what I have read here, you may not be able to trust your pup until he is 18 to 24 months old.

You may want to try tethering, that way you are not giving negative enforcements all the time.

Also, with the treat/market training(it only has to be a pea sized treat) teaching him to come to their name has also been really helpful for me, so for the times I drop her leash and let her loose, she comes back to me when I call. It is always a positive experience when I call her name or call her to come to me.

I hope this helps, but like I said, I am new at all this, too, but these are my experiences in the past six weeks.

You asked if a dog can get wise to the e-collar. Molly has taken this one step further. She knows it's the remote that controls the collar. I've corrected her and had her comply immediately and then find out I forgot to turn the remote on.

If I have the remote around my neck she minds perfectly. Actually she was probably responding to the movement of taking the remote in my hand so I've taken to hiding the remote in my shirt pocket. To a dog out of sight is out of mind. If I need to give a correction I can move my hand up and push the button through he fabric of my shirt pocket. She'll probably end up only obeying when I have my hand on my pocket and everyone will think I'm having a heart attack because she's obeying me.

Yes, eventually the idea is to wean the dog off the training tool whether it be a prong collar or e-collar but that is for when the dog is 100% complying with the command. After a while it becomes automatic to the dog. Learning any task has two phases. The first is the cognitive phase where you (or the dog) thinks, "What does this command mean?" Later after many many repetitions the task becomes associative. Associative is where the task becomes automatic.

A good example is if you take your dog to it's crate every time someone comes to the door. Eventually when someone knocks on the door the dog will get up and go to it's crate with no prompting. When this happens going to the crate becomes associative to the dog. It doesn't think it just does it.

EDIT: Don't get the phases mixed up with the description Ed gives in the video about learning phase, correction phase etc. Cognitive and associative relates to brain structure. At first the brain has to search around for the proper response but after repetition the brain rewires itself so that the response becomes automatic.

 Quote: kim wibbing

....are there dogs who will comply only on leash; ones who are smart enough to know that, without a leash (or elec device)the owner can't do anything to stop him? Ones who never fully submit unless forced with a collar of some type?

No. That would mean inept training. Remember motivational marker training and then proofing? (Your comment was that your dog does better without marker training. )

All dogs know that. I know that you don't really believe that it takes a genius dog to know that the leash is the handler's physical control.

 Quote: kim wibbing

Because on his DVD, his dogs were sometimes worse than mine at having to be told over and over to stop & do, and I don't use markers. Mine learned very quickly to stop at doors and stairs, etc. He learned overnight to stay off furniture and wait until last to eat...on leash. I'm wondering if I need to use treats at all after the dvd, cuz mine is responding as well as his dogs without markers on a leash. It's off leash that he doesn't care what I do! He knows his real enemy is the leash/crate! He scratches and chews at it for that reason (leash).

This reflects on you and your training. Are you aware that the videos show dogs being trained (I suspect that you're not)? That is, NOT fully-trained dogs putting on a show?

 Quote: kim wibbing

Also, he must spend gobs of money on marker training treats every year. I don't think I could afford what he does. Treats aren't cheap IMHO.

Little dot-size pieces of meat are not cheap?

 Quote: kim wibbing

I'm not trying to be nasty, honest.

What I read here is frustration at your lack of success, and what I would recommend is that you renew your commitment and look at your consistency rather than try to blame training instruction or your dog's brain (which makes me laugh every time I read it; we aren't trying to trick our dogs, you know, with most people having moron dogs who fall for it and you having a genius dog who sees through it; every word like that makes me laugh again).

 Quote: kim wibbing

Also, it appeared to me that most of his animals live *outside* in kennels, or in a place inside away from the family living area! I only saw one scene in a kitchen and the dog was on a leash and doing marker training. I would have liked to view him working with a dog off leash in a family room with people walking around. I know this must take place; he mentions putting beds all over the house.

Trained house dogs following commands would not allow you to see training BEING DONE.

 Quote: kim wibbing

IMHO, If a dog is off leash and across the room and there is no threat of prong collar, I guess Mr. Frawley has to use an electric collar to get them to obey/respond, which tells me they aren't trained without some type of control in place.

"Threat of prong collar"? I urge you to back up and review your own methods. I was already surprised when I read in a later post that you gave a "prong collar correction" (indoors, over a sock) hard enough to make the puppy yelp or whine, but I didn't jump on that and tried to give constructive advice. Now seeing this post, I see that I might've made a mistake.

Obeying commands off-leash has everything to do with you and your consistent training. You don't have the one dog out of the 20,000 or so owned by the forum members who is untrainable because of his intelligence.

This is not rocket science. Reading and listening and watching and then being consistent and fair, rewarding for wanted behavior, proofing for distractions and weaning away from the early 100%-rewards that I use in the teaching phase -- these are not weirdo and mysterious methods.

I can only assume that this kind of frustrated post comes from your own lack of instant success.... but if you acually do what experienced people suggest rather than coming back with how it won't work on your dog ( ), then you will see this happen: "I hope and pray he gets the point that he has to obey me off leash as well as on leash."

** I believe that some of your later posts are less frustrated and defensive, but I ran across this one and thought I should answer it and not leave it for unsuspecting readers to stumble across and run screaming for the exit. **

 Quote: matt wyrick

.... Yes, eventually the idea is to wean the dog off the training tool whether it be a prong collar or e-collar but that is for when the dog is 100% complying with the command.

Yes, just as adding distractions is done only when the dog really knows the command.

There was a post earlier about "the dog does know it," and a reply about partly knowing it.... and this is a common error for new handlers, I think. The dog may know "sit in the living room when only you and I are there," for example, but knows nothing at all about "sit in the back yard when there is no smell of reward-treats and there are people walking by."

He may not even know "sit in the kitchen" yet!

We tend to think that the dog has magically learned the dictionary definition for "sit," and not that the dog now understands what to do when his handler says "sit" in the living room.

 Quote: connie sutherland

There was a post earlier about "the dog does know it," and a reply about partly knowing it.... and this is a common error for new handlers, I think. The dog may know "sit in the living room when only you and I are there," for example, but knows nothing at all about "sit in the back yard when there is no smell of reward-treats and there are people walking by."

He may not even know "sit in the kitchen" yet!

We tend to think that the dog has magically learned the dictionary definition for "sit," and not that the dog now understands what to do when his handler says "sit" in the living room.

This is so, so, so, so true. I am doing marker training, crate/tethering, the whole bit and for anyone who is new to this realize the wisdom in the above reply. Even though she sits, it is a little bit different every time. When we are doing marker training in the living room, she automatically sits. When I feed her, she automatically sits before I put the dish down. When I take her outside, she automatically sits before I open the door. But just to tell her sit? She still isn't sure what I am asking. Takes lots and lots an lots of repetitions.

But, this is the absolute easiest way I have ever trained a dog. The mistakes are few and doing the tethering has helped me potty train my very independent, difficult to train dog to near perfection in about three months.

I think that between the tethering and marker training, she has a stronger bond and wants to please. Whatever I ask of her, she looks at me and (I think) is trying to figure out what I want.

The only corrections I have ever done are leash corrections for walking/pulling and annoying barking. (And for anyone who has read my other posts, I don't have a bark collar yet, but am doing better with the barking. I realized that my timing was not good and so I just relaxed a little and don't attempt to correct unless she is within arms reach, also, I take her to the door when someone is there and do exercises to shush her and make her stay back from the door. I still think she needs more time before I try the bark collar)

That's the reason I started carrying treats around with me. Then training can happen anytime anywhere whether we are out in the yard, in the kitchen or living room. I have a set of fatigues I use as work pants with huge pockets so I jut throw some treats in those. She has sit perfect and lay down is her favorite. She'll just walk up to me and lay down sometimes then look up at me to see if that will get her a treat.

I know, the dog is a nutcase.

I have ordered, but not yet watched the pack order DVD. I would assume that Ed demonstrates the training methods with dogs still in progress, not with trained dogs. On his various pod casts or short videos you can see many examples of trained dogs. At this point, I can only say that in training my very large dog when he was young, I used a flat collar and positive methods, and didn't introduce a prong until later. Dogs need a lot of exercise, and I might try more tethering and less crating if the dog is feeling too confined. But it does sound from some of your posts that the dog is making progress. It takes time.

Matt, that's an excellent suggestion. Someone else suggested to put treats thru out the house so one is always ready, but I never seem to have one when I need it.

Tomorrow I will start keeping some on me.

Thanks.