I wouldn't continue the weeks with no calcium.

True food allergies are to proteins, even if not to what we might consider a protein food. (Example: peanut allergies are to a protein in the peanut.) Sensitivities are another matter.

You are seeing classic skin reactions to allergies, whether food or environmental/inhalant, so I would be looking for proteins (although environmental/inhalant allergies are much more common; lots of dogs have both).

I agree with everyone who thinks that the fish oil and E should be reintroduced. Add just those and observe, but the likelihood of either one triggering an allergic skin response is slim to see-through, IMHO.

But the calcium is a concern. Ten weeks on one protein and the sweet potato as an elimination diet isn't terribly unbalanced, but no calcium is.

Are you planning to continue the beef and sweet potato? Are you looking for a canned food, or raw, or what? Has this dog ever eaten duck?

I think you are aware that the diarrhea, etc., was probably unrelated to the allergy problem; it was more likely too rapid a switch to raw, or too much food, or too much fat, organ meat, etc., at the beginning.

The first thing I'd do would be to start a log and get him on fish oil and E. I'd get calcium back into his diet, either by grinding the beef and the bones that come with it or with calcium supplements (no gelatin capsules, just to keep from adding a new protein source).

Have you done trials of Hydroxyzine and Chlorpheniramine? If not, that would be on my agenda too, operating on the assumption that there's more than one allergy going on.

THK does indeed have too many ingredients for an elimination diet, as Carol pointed out.

Did you start the washing (grasses, pollen, etc.) at the same time as the elimination diet? Any chance that the allergy is strictly environmental and is responding to that?

How bad is the itching now? Is his sleep uninterrupted? Is he breaking skin?

1. I will reintroduce salmon oil and E tomorrow.

2. I will get calcium in him also.

3. I think after the 10 weeks is up, I would like to try chicken and see what his reaction is to that - for some reason I 'feel' chicken may be a problem, but I want to know for sure.

4. I do know the diarrhea is not an allergy reaction - I think it was because he was young and he practically inhaled the food w/o any chewing - I think I'm going to look into a meat grinder. I'm not very comfortable with the way he gulps instead of chewing.

5. Yes, he has had duck - and venison, chicken, lamb, turkey, white fish. I live in a beach city of So. Ca and I can not get anything but beef and poultry at a price I can afford. So I'm praying that he can tolerate poultry when I try it.

6. He is currently taking Hydroxyzine - it makes a little difference on the majority of his body, doesn't seem to help foot chewing. The Chlorpheniramine didn't seem to do anything. Benedryl has also been tried with a little success.

7. I started washing his paws way before the elimination diet. There is a chance that it is strictly environmental - that's why I decided to find out for sure - it's a pain, but I want to make sure I know what I'm dealing with, so I'm willing to do it. I'm very anxious to get to that 10 week or so point and add chicken to see what happens.

8. The itching intensity is not consistent (another indication it's at least partly environmental I think). I would say, overall, the itching is a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10 (although the feet are more like a 7 most of the time). The itching doesn't seem to wake him up from naps during the day, but he does scratch and chew his feet during the night - not all night long, but for a few short periods. He is not breaking skin scratching, but the skin between his toes gets very red. (I mix witch hazel, boric acid powder and genetian violet together and put that between his toes after I wash them and that seems to calm them down a lot and prevents yeast). He gets a few little rash bumps on his inside thighs and in his front armpits - but his coat is shiny and beautiful, not greasy, he doesn't smell at all, so at this point he is minimally affected as to how he looks. YES!, he is a pain!!! But he's the most affection, well trained, beautiful dog I've ever had! He's in training to be a therapy dog - that's one of the reasons I don't want him to have skin problems! Besides the fact I don't want him miserable.

I think that answers all your questions. I really appreciate the guidance here - our vet is great and trusts my instincts, but they aren't the best resource when it comes to diet!
Lori

If it is just his feet that he is doing this to, have you had him checked for a yeast infection?

Silly Question Thread

(you have to scroll down a few posts in order to get to the non-funny discussion but it has good info in it)

I had to jump on here and say that it's wise to start the fish oil and E and the calcium, and that I'll be back on later with more.

Connie, I did put the salmon oil and E back today - I'll go find calcium tomorrow. I have to admit that I have been cooking the hamburger. My husband is a little afraid of raw for bacterial reasons. But I HATE cooking all this hamburger and would like to transition to raw if you think it would be better. So should I? and if so, how much raw hamburger and cooked sweet potato would you give him a day (he weighs 75 lbs and is moderately active)? He's been getting 1 1/2c. cooked hamburger with 3/4 c. cooked, smashed sweet potato 2x's a day - I was told by vet to feed about 1300-1400 calories a day, so that's how I came up with the amount.

Lori

I don't think the amount changes from cooked to raw. If you've been tossing some of the grease, then I'd start with lower-fat meat when you switch to raw to avoid any diarrhea from a sudden addition of fat.

Are you pretty sure that the elimination diet has eliminated half of the itching problem?

How's his weight on the amount he's getting?

That sounds like a lot of sweet potato to meat.

BTW, when you do start to challenge the system with other foods, don't forget that it's one at a time, with time to observe any reaction.

So you would give more meat and less potato?

He's eating 1 1/2 lbs of hamburger a day, which is 1150 calories figuring I brown it some and drain off most of the fat (it's 12% fat hamburger from Costco).

Does it matter, as far as nutrition, if I lightly cook it or give it raw?

I guess I'm asking for your advice as to how much hamburger and potato would you give a 1 1/2 yr old, 75 lb golden who is not more than moderately active.

Also, can I bother you to tell me what kind of calcium I should give - bone meal, a human calcium tab? (I didn't think I should do egg shells since he's on this strict diet right now)

Sorry for so many questions, I just want to do this right!
Thank you sooo much!!
lori

Oh, and the question you asked about Am I sure the itching is less because of the diet - no! I don't know how I can be sure of that if we're also dealing with environmental (which I AM sure there is some of that!). We went up to Cambria for 4 days last weekend, so I watched carefully to see if the itching was any different there and it was not. There is a lot of stuff in bloom everywhere! We're in So. CA coastal area, so it's probably the same, but I thought I'd see. If he plays on the grass for even 20 minutes - like he did yesterday - he's biting his feet the rest of the day like crazy. So I'm not sure of anything at this point. I think I'll have to see if the amount of itching changes at all when I add chicken. That's the only thing I can think of to do.

 Quote: Lori Hall

Sorry for so many questions, I just want to do this right!
Thank you sooo much!!
lori

Is there any way that you can grind beef with bones? It could be the cheapest cuts in existence, and you could trim the large strips of fat (if any) somewhat.

 Quote: Lori Hall

f he plays on the grass for even 20 minutes - like he did yesterday - he's biting his feet the rest of the day like crazy.

Can you rinse (or use baby wipes) his feet and undercarriage thoroughly each time, before he drags allergens in to his bed, your carpet, etc.?

It's not a contact thing; it's the fact that he picks up grass and pollens, etc., on his feet and lower body and then has them with him to inhale 24/7.

I would also launder his bed, vacuum thoroughly, and bathe him.

The LB allergy book taught me something that has since proven (many times) to be correct: Getting allergens rinsed off the dog trumps any possible loss of skin oils, etc., from bathing. And oils can be supplemented.