Susan I've seen a similar test but it was done to test temperment not compliance. I agree with the board this will only break the puppy's will.

Obedince would be better and less of a conflict, I notice afterwards he growled and barked at you. This is a spunky pup, don't break him work with him. Teach the sit and come these lessons can be easy adds some treats and make it fun, for him.

Each dog is different by breed and personalities
it may have worked on your 3 Rotties but it may ruin this cute little spunky rascal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi! I'm new to this message board. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'd like to ask a question about this since I am dealing with this very subject myself right now.

I have a 10 week old Catahoula pup and a 9 month old Manchester Terrier. The pup has been showing some dominant complaining. For example, if she's starts chewing something she's not supposed to and we pick her up and give her something else. She'll stare at us and bark defiantly and then run back to what she was doing before. If we catch her and tell her 'No' and give her something else she'll make a 'devil' face teeth showing and make growling grumbling complaint noises and chew on whatever is closest to her, like the couch or the carpet or sometimes even her own feet.

I have started doing the 'Alpha roll' thinking in my mind that it will stop this dominant attitude. Whenever she acts like this I roll her over and say 'No, I'm the boss' and hold her until she stops fighting. We started doing this 2 days ago and it seems to be working. She doesn't fight us much anymore and when we let her up she follows us around instead of going back to what she was doing wrong.

I read the post about this breaking the pups will, but isn't that the point? To send the message that dominant actions toward us will not be tolerated. I want her to turn into a submissive 50lb dog, not one who thinks she owns our house.

Our Manchester Terrier never acts like the puppy in defiant dominant actions, she's very submissive and all it takes with her is a sideways glance. I understand however that the breed of dog has a lot to do with it.

Should I stop doing the 'Alpha Roll'? If so, what should I do when she 'talks back' and barks at us when we correct her? I don't want her to get the idea that that behavior is aloud because I know very quickly she can become dangerous if she thinks that it is acceptable behavior. I don't want a large dog showing its teeth and barking at me when I try to correct it! When she acts like this it reminds me of a kid I used to baby sit when I'd tell her to go brush her teeth for bed and she'd say ... 'No, I'm still watching tv' and then I'd say 'I know that but I said go brush your teeth.' and she'd say 'BUT I SAID NO!' Truly it's kinda funny but the puppy has that same look on her face! *laugh*

I'd also like to add that she knows Sit, Down, Shake hands, and come so far. We use hot dogs sometimes, praise other times, and sometimes biscuits. I also am using the 'Nothing in life is free' method. Before they go outside, eat, or get let off the leash when we come inside; they have to sit and stay, or down and stay whichever I choose. They listen very well and hardly give me any problems. If they do not listen all I have to do is apply a very little pull (not a tug or a jerk) to the leash (just applying enough resistance that they can feel it) and say 'No' with a dominant tone and then repeat the command. Usually they listen with the first correction. I havn't had it take more than 3. I've trained dogs before (granted not puppies) and I am not one who will use a choke chain. I havn't found it to be needed, and I hate the 'do what I say or die' training method.

Generally the puppy is VERY good.. I'm just concerned that her 'arguing' and 'talking' back could get out of control if I don't do something about it now. With the little girl I was babysitting the only way to get her to listen to me was to actually physically pick her up and carry her to the bathroom and not let her out until she brushed her teeth. The alpha roll seems to be very similar in concept.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Welcome aboard.

At 10 weeks old, I don't think you have to go crazy with alpha rolls here. I am not a big fan of alpha rolls in general, but that is another topic for another day. This goes back to what Richard said earlier about gaining control thru leadership and obedience. I would prefer a scruff shake with a firm NO! Follow this by re-directing the puppy towards a positive behavior. The puppy is so young. It is more important to set a foundation of what acceptable play is. The general rule of thumb with a young pup this age is correct(scruff shake or verbal correction) then re-direct.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Ok. I will try that. Thank you.

Though I generally agree that Obedeince and Postive reforcement is favored over the "Alpha Roll" or restrain to complaince method. If your purpose is to break the puppies will then you are doing the correct thing. I notice your puppy follows you and seems to act better. This maybe what it needs each dog is different.

Her puppy after being restrained barked and growled at her, so she may need to seek another way of handling this. Especially if her son is planning on working the dog, when he gets older.
Theres nothing worst then leaving a "Rambo" puppy and coming back to a "boy name sue", wait both of these where fighters. We'll anyway you get what I mean, her son comes back to a broken spirit puppy.

I learned this the hard way there is no telling how good a dog my female Rottie could have been.
I was successful with my Male GSD pup using a forceful down during training, he was able to brush off rough treatment and keep working.

This was a woman trainers big dog down technique, it worked but not on all dogs. It was to issue the command, and if they don't down the 1st time you step down on the leash. I don't use this technique anymore, unless the dog is very hard headed.

This same technique on the female Rottie/Pitt almost ruined our relationship and her spirit, she was a very confident puppy. I should have used a different approach. It tooks months if not a full year to get her confidence and courage built back up.

I'm not back sliding its just we have to go with what works. I am really against restraining the boxer puppy because its not her's and of course it did not work. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Lets not forget...10 weeks old. I'll say it again...10 weeks old. :rolleyes:

If you can't get control of a 10 week old puppy you should probably get a goldfish. This is not meant to sound condescending so please don't take it that way. Correct and re-direct. We should not have to try that hard to "break the puppies will".
I really hate this "restrain and compliance" stuff.

Let me re-phrase this for all less experienced puppy owners who may think my statement was arrogant. If you can't get control of a 10 week old puppy using the methods myself and Richard described above(you should not need to "alpha roll" IMO) then either you have a deranged pup or you should get a goldfish. People come here for advice and I apologize if I came across like a jerk. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I understand completely and I agree with you. My using the Alpha roll was due to being told that's the way to fix the problem. (by a breeder actually) Then I heard some posting on the discussion board say it isn't a good idea. That's why I asked my question. I have also heard that scruff shaking is bad. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I've even read that you should actually bite your dog. :rolleyes: There are alot of different opinions out there and for someone like me who is not an expert we can have alot of different answers or opinions given for one question.
I have been trying the scruff shaking and it does seem to be working better 'now'. I say 'now' because before doing the Alpha rolls a scruff shake would only make her act out more. She may only be 10 weeks old but she is already the same size as my Manchester Terrier... almost bigger. Her teeth are VERY sharp and she is VERY STRONG!

As I admited already I am no expert. However, I know what behavior is acceptable in our household and I know how my puppy reacts to different methods of handling. When she bites at me and barks defiantly and I shake her scruff say no and give her something else she attacks it and runs the other direction getting into something else she's not supposed to. I usually have to end up putting her in her crate for a time out so she calms down. (I still have to do this although not as often...maybe because she's growing older...maybe because of the Alpha rolls?)
When I would do an Alpha roll she would calm down immediatly and would even try to lick my face. These are the results I got, truthfully.

I have stopped doing Alpha rolls because I highly respect the opinions and experience of those who've answered my questions. I don't want to break her spirit... I just want to control it and guide it when needed. So I will continue trying the scruff shakes and keep my fingers and all other parts of me far away from her mouth when I do so. I'm still kind of confused though ... scruff shakes make her angry ... Alpha rolls make her calm down. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I feel torn between what I'm being told is best and what i've seen. I guess she just hasn't read the books on how she's supposed to react. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In addition to recommending AGAINST alpha rolls, I'd like to make an additional suggestion.

Did you puppy proof your home when you brought your puppy home, and do you continue to keep it in a puppy proofed state? Do you have a crate for your puppy, and is she confined to her crate when you cannot supervise her?

Controlling the puppy's environment to eliminate opportunities for inappropriate behavior is by far MUCH better than constantly reacting to and correcting inappropriate behavior. Puppy behavior is formed during these first weeks and months; their brains are developing at an amazing rate. You have to control the environment and prevent her from being able to chew anything inappropriate in the first place. Pick up clothes, shoes, childrens toys, remote controls, eyeglasses, electrical cords, video tapes, books, waste baskets.....I think you get the idea.

When you bring home a new infant, you baby proof the home. This is because baby doesn't know any better than not to put things in their mouth, or pull on electrical cords. You prevent accidents and harm from coming to the baby by controlling their environment. The same should be done when you bring a puppy home. When the puppy is older, you can probably relax and let the house go back to its former, pre-puppy state, and the adult dog will not have learned bad habits; all because you modified the puppy's environment and prevented bad habits from being learned in the first place.

I think it's very likely that she is developing a view of her relationship to you as an adversarial one. Where she explores her environment with her mouth, and you are constantly dominating her with alpha rolls and discipline. It is natural for puppies to explore. It is your job to provide opportunities for her to explore in a positive way, and eliminate opportunities to get into things that she's not supposed to.

Does that make sense to you?

LSwanston,

Makes sense to me. Nice post.