Again I agree with Roni in that the dog is not hungry enough. Cut back or stop feeding the day before you do obedience. Once the dog is hungry enough I have found they will push to eat anything you offer. Once the behavior is shaped you can go back to your normal feeding, which is probably to much (g) Norman

Thanks. Will have to try some "out of the box" food. She does love chocolate and cream puffs...and I do know they are not good for her. Will have to just get a little more creative.

It has been quite tempting for a few of our participants (including Gary) to use food rather than a toy (tugs in these cases) as a reward because the dogs are actually calmer for food than they are for their reward toys in OB.

Our trainer has always encouraged us to "train up" to the higher drive levels that these dogs show for their reward toys in OB, rather than their lower levels of drive for food.

We do train the young pups with pieces of food for the basics - sit, platz, hier. And of course food is used on the track (which toy rewards where appropriate / if needed). I'm mainly talking about OB.

One of our participants who started with a 3-4 month old puppy about 15 months ago BEGGED to move to food rewards for OB because his dog is calmer that way. This team really struggled to get their timing and moves right. For a long time they struggles. Dave encouraged him (and won) to stick with higher drive rewards (the toy). IMO, it paid off.

Now - OMG you should see their OB work. The dog got it, the handler got it, and this dog works beautifully at a very high level of drive now. Food rewards would have gotten a job done earlier - but at a lower drive level. I dont' think it would have been as intense - VERY intense (and gorgeous) - as it has turned out to be.

For whatever it's worth.

Beth

Hi Guys;
The purpose of using both food and a prey object in training is to to acccelerate learning. When using a toy for instance, holding the (ball above the head) to help the dog sit, focuses the attention of the dog on to the ball, not on the sit. What you have done is physically manipulated the dog into the body position without the dog thinking about it. A dog will always differ to body language from us versus verbal. So we say sit and the dog hears, blah, but moves into position because of how we are holding the ball. I want to quickly wean the dog off of the body language as soon as possible, so getting to using the toy or food as a reward instead of a lure is really important.
This just accelerates learning. Precision is demanded in our dog sports now. We just can't settle for less than. I prefer to put precision in first and then illicit prey drive to bring
"snappiness" to the preformace!!!!! If I teach the sit without presicion, it isn't fair to then correct him for not doing it correctly, when that's exactly what I have taught him in the first place. Hope this clears things up!!!!

Thanks and very interesting! Seems like there are 2 camps on this one. Would it be fair to say that whatever gets the dog motivated and/or manipulated easily into the position we want should be used? This would be as long as the dog is actually "learning" what we want and we are not correcting for something they have not "learned".

Food I'm sure would motivate her if I seriously cut back on her feedings. However the "toy" generates what I feel is a natural desire to perform. I would compare this to the drive that our other dogs show for food, but in a more excited and focused state.

To delve a little deeper since it seems the focus is on "precision", has anyone taught this with a "toy". Also, what constitutes "precision". Is it the precision in an AKC type obedience competition, or is it one that will allow for some "errors" as long as the dog shows enthusiasm and drive?

New to Schutzhund so am interested in what others have to say.

Examples of using food and then the transition away from food for teaching precision obedience and shaping other behaviors, with a very young GSD pup.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY-NvNJ7qJo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eaveymXzU8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilciVSKCO_M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpqAStDsYuY

OK David;
YOU WILL LOOSE POINTS for sloppyness in our dog sports now!
So your choice is to teach "it" correctly in the first place or spend the career life of the dog correcting him for your lack of
precision. Not fair to the dog in my opinion.
Your choice.
Roni

Norman, these are great videos. You have done a great job with Dap and you should be very proud.

Roni and Norman, I don't disagree with either of you that food will teach a dog without them being over excited. We have 3 cattle dogs and a corgi that are very food driven and were trained with food. We did train Sasha the "basics" (sit, down, stay, come) with food. This we did in the house, no distractions, and very controlled environment. Have always had dogs growing up, so this is not my first, however she is my first "challenge" in more ways than one.

However, out of the house in the yard or at the park, I think you could put a steak in front of her and she would totally blow you off. Always has. Toys will at least refocus and motivate her. Wouldn't this be the same thing as a food motivator?

My questions is still, has anyone taught "precision" obedience, with a "toy" beyond the basics. Also, what constitutes "precision". Looking for more of a definition. It sounds like Beth and others have had some positive experience with non-food motivation.

Just trying to gain as much insight as I can. Thanks for all of your input and advice.

Ideally I like to start with food then go to a tug. If the dog has low food drive use whatever holds value to the dog. If it has very high drive for the toy it can still be done. Just have patience and mark and reward only when correct.
Precision in heeling is perfect alignment of the dogs shoulder with your left pant leg seam.
AKC is much more anal about precision then it is about a dog with good attitude.
I do AKC OB and Schutzhund.

David wrote in part:

However, out of the house in the yard or at the park, I think you could put a steak in front of her and she would totally blow you off. Always has. Toys will at least refocus and motivate her. Wouldn't this be the same thing as a food motivator?

David first of all thank you for your kind words. My contention is and always has been, use food to shape a behavior, not to proof that same behavior. Once a dog *completely* understands what you want of him and he chooses to "blow you off", the will then because of that understanding also understand the correction. If the want exceeds the result of disobedience the dog will never be trustworthy to perform that task.