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Re: Using Horse Training Ideas
[Re: Doyle W. Banks ]
#17659 - 10/25/2002 10:23 AM |
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My apology if this is in the wrong location, but I want to respond. I'm learning from your exchanges.
Let me give just a bit of background. I've competed on horses but never with dogs. I searched 6 months before I decided on this bloodline (Grandson of VA Lasso Vom Neuen Berg 1997 World Sieger and 1997 & 1998 Canadian Sieger. His grandmother is VA Molli Vom Wiesenborn, 1999 Canadian Segerin). The kennel I purchased him from (bought first pick of two litters) does title work, etc. So to my uneducated eye, he is want I wanted (I hope).
That is, I'm VERY interested in Schutzhund work(show and/or working trials) - have no interest in AKC. So, I am VERY interested in developing (maintaining?) the drive required to be able to enjoy competing with at least a little success.
So, your input is very important.
Thanks
Doyle
Doyle W. Banks |
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Re: Using Horse Training Ideas
[Re: Doyle W. Banks ]
#17660 - 10/25/2002 10:44 AM |
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I'm with Cindy on this one - you're not diminishing drive at all by teaching the pup how to get what he wants by focusing that drive into a USEFUL behavior that you will need all the time in the future. As long as you are only asking for a moment of attention and not expecting long duration behaviors at this point, you're doing great. The earlier they learn this "cause and effect" thing called positive reinforcement, the better. When they understand at an early age that they can push your buttons to make you give them what they want, they are so easy to shape and they learn so quickly. There's plenty of opportunities to encourage the wildman side of him during play also.
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Re: Using Horse Training Ideas
[Re: Doyle W. Banks ]
#17661 - 10/25/2002 12:15 PM |
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Sch3FH2:
...you're not diminishing drive at all by teaching the pup how to get what he wants by focusing that drive into a USEFUL behavior ... How do you know this? If you reward the 10 week puppy for being calm... isn't it learning that maximum drive is not rewarded or even desired? Why can the focus not wait until 16 or 24 weeks?
Sch3FH2:
When they understand at an early age that they can push your buttons to make you give them what they want, they are so easy to shape and they learn so quickly. I prefer to have them learn to "push my buttons" by going INTO drive rather than being calm at a young age. After I see that they give me 100% of every ounce of drive I begin to teach focus.
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Re: Using Horse Training Ideas
[Re: Doyle W. Banks ]
#17662 - 10/25/2002 12:22 PM |
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I am not sure this is an either/or thing. Just because the pup isn't being rewarded for being out of control/unfocused doesn't mean that you can't reward real drive when it is requested. The thought I have about this is it is much easier to prevent a problem than to fix it later. I try not to train or allow behaviors I don't want later. Most problems take 5 or more times as long to fix as create. If you can prevent/fix the problem early it is going to an advantage down the road.
If you can't be a Good Example,then You'll just have to Serve as a Horrible Warning. Catherine Aird. |
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Re: Using Horse Training Ideas
[Re: Doyle W. Banks ]
#17663 - 10/25/2002 12:34 PM |
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Just my 2cents. If the pup stops to focus in order to gain a reward(ball, tug, etc). You are not squelching drive, you are building it thru frustration. If the pup tugs on the leash, he isn't necessarily being drivy, just uncontroled. If he is focused on you in order to get a reward, he is building drive. When the pup goes out on a leash, he is rewarded for focusing on you, even for a short time. As you extend the time of focus, the pups drive build thru frustration of wanting the reward.
old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks |
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Re: Using Horse Training Ideas
[Re: Doyle W. Banks ]
#17664 - 10/25/2002 01:30 PM |
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Richard... the problem that can't be fixed later will come through squishing, capping, narrowing, focusing at too young an age... so that maximum drive is lost.
Most adult dogs have minimal drive to work. I see it time and time again... awesome, drivey, strong pups that just seem to gradually wind down to mediocre by the time they are ready for sleeve work.
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Re: Using Horse Training Ideas
[Re: Doyle W. Banks ]
#17665 - 10/25/2002 01:48 PM |
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What you see in those adults doesn't come from channelling drive as a youngster. It comes from telling a puppy he's WRONG for being exuberant or for just being a pup. What we're talking about has nothing to do with punishing or trying to do away with drive - it's about finding ways to channel all that energy into a moment of intense focus which is then rewarded. Don't confuse letting a youngster be a wild pain in the butt with "building drive". Not the same thing.
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Re: Using Horse Training Ideas
[Re: Doyle W. Banks ]
#17666 - 10/25/2002 02:45 PM |
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Originally posted by Dave Lilley:
I prefer to have them learn to "push my buttons" by going INTO drive rather than being calm at a young age. After I see that they give me 100% of every ounce of drive I begin to teach focus. pushing buttons is pushing buttons... either way it is within the realm of operant learning.. the dog is "operating" on you to get what it wants..
IMO teaching a dog to "cap" itself at an early age is an awesome idea, the quicker you can teach a dog to work within its own drive the less likely the dog will be to have issues such as "handler aggression"
-Matt |
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Re: Using Horse Training Ideas
[Re: Doyle W. Banks ]
#17667 - 10/25/2002 02:47 PM |
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Ok... I'm tired of arguing... so this will be my last post on the topic. Suffice to say that there are different approaches that may be used.
I don't agree that simply "not punishing" drivey or wild behavior is good enough with young pups.
I think the drivey, wild behavior should be ACTIVELY encouraged... for at least the first few months... if you want MAXIMUM drive.
In my experience... you can always bring a young dog under more control... but you can NEVER put back the drive that was lost during that wild, fearless age between 12-20 weeks of age.
In my experience, any behavior that is not rewarded will diminish over time. I see little advantage in "capping the drive" before it has reached maximum.
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Re: Using Horse Training Ideas
[Re: Doyle W. Banks ]
#17668 - 10/25/2002 02:48 PM |
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example:
my 9 month Mali pup, has to sit before he is allowed to go throught the door to get outside... I never told him to sit, so it is not an OB routine... I simply didn't allow him outside until he did... now (that he has figured it out) he it sitting, but whinning, chomping his teeth, and wiggling.... does that sound like "squelched drive"??
-Matt |
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