Quote: jeff cambeis

A synthetic molecule is exactly the same the as a natural one. You can spend 10X more for "natural vita C" than synthesised. In either case lots of chemicals are involved. One is chemically extracted from food sources (natural) the other is synthesized from organic matter, both involve the use of sometimes dangerous chemicals, but the end result if done properly should be the same.

I believe that only one E tocopherol is synthesized. No? This is my own reason for using and recommending mixed tocopherols (which are, of course, not synthetic).

Beth, natural foods stores seem to always have the 200 IU size (and many others).

Leerburg does, too.

Thanks for clarifying, Connie.

Dr. Foster and Dr. Smith:

Vitamin E

Vitamin E is the third of the fat soluble vitamins. Foods rich in Vitamin E include plant oils such as safflower and wheat germ. As with the other fat soluble vitamins, Vitamin E is also highly concentrated in meats such as liver and fat. All of the functions of Vitamin E are not known, but it plays a role in the formation of cell membranes, cell respiration, and in the metabolism of fats. It is an antioxidant and protects various hormones from oxidation.

Deficiencies of Vitamin E will cause cell damage and death in skeletal muscle, heart, testes, liver, and nerves. It is essential in keeping the cells of these organs alive and functioning. Vitamin E deficiencies have been well documented in both dogs and cats. The 'Brown Bowel Syndrome' is the condition usually used to describe a dog or cat suffering from inadequate Vitamin E. These animals have affected bowels which ulcerate, hemorrhage, and degenerate. In addition, the cells of the eyes and testes can also be affected.

There is no experimental evidence to support the popular belief that Vitamin E in excess will help increase the stamina in breeding dogs or cats. Vitamin E is occasionally supplemented for this reason, but it is ineffective.

There are no known Vitamin E toxicities in the dog and cat. Fed even at huge levels, no interruption of bodily functions has been demonstrated. Recommendations on the daily dose are highly variable depending on the source. Further research is necessary to discover other possible functions of Vitamin E. END from
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?articleid=710

http://www.caberfeidh.com/Pain2.htm
suggests fish oil and Vitamin E for OA management.

Anyone who has vet manuals in book form, please PM me and I will supply citations about Vitamin E and dogs, including disease from deficiency, and dietary sources.

Also see
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=vitamins

 Quote: Sarah Morris

 Quote: Jeff Cambeis

If you are concerned about giving the powdered form, remember 2 things. Vita E is fat soluble and is stored. It is not like Vita C that you need to take every day. The second thing is that dogs make their own Vita E, and by giving to much you are likely shutting down natural processes.

Hi Jeff,

You've mentioned this about Vitamin E before, and since then I've been wondering if I'm giving my dog too much. I've always given it daily with the salmon oil.

How often would you give a 400IU gelcap to an 80lb dog? Every other day? Once a week? Once a month?

On a related note, in addition to my dog's appearance and energy, I also rely on twice-yearly blood tests to tell me if I'm keeping everything in balance with regard to the raw diet. So far, everything looks great. If he's getting too much of a certain vitamin (like E) where would that show up in the blood work...or would it show at all?

Apologies for the slightly off-topic hijack, Ingrid.

Hello Sarah,

I feel very uncomfortable telling someone how much Vita E is right for their dog. For one thing it depends upon the individual dogs body size, age, activity and metabolism. I am also not a canine nutritionist.
Background:
What I can offer is how much I give and why it is I give that amount.
Any manufacturer of a supplement is in business. The are selling a product they want you to buy. This is why vets and drug companies push unnecessary vaccinations. IMO most of the supplement suppliers have the same motivation, the more you buy the more they make. The advantage supplements have is that they are less regulated, and have to provide less evidence for their claims. Generally speaking as long a recommended does is not harmful it will be accepted.
In reality the body is complex machine that relies not so complicated mechanisms. Many consumers are not taught any of mechanism and are prey to drug manufacturers.
Some science:
Just about every body process relies on the principle of equilibrium. That principle basically states that only so much is going to happen with in given circumstances. This complicates nutrition deeply because there is a maximum and a minimum to consider in every process.
A relevant hypothetical example would be the absorption of vita K, A, and E.
Let say at a maximum the body can absorb a total combined amount of 1000 units of E,A, and K. By increasing amount of E you decrease the amount of K and A absorbed.
Also body chemistry is not linear. That is to say that if you double weight you double need. This should serve a red flare when dosing. Body process follow a more logarithmic scale.

What does this all mean, and how to I apply it?
IMO 800 IU/day may not be harmful but it may not be any more beneficial than 200 IU given 2-3 times a week. I am even willing to bet money that if you give your dog 800 IU at once he only absorbs 50% of that.
Absorption is another thing to consider. Doubling the dose does not mean you double the absorption.

This is just my opinion and how/why I formed it. I would defer to someone like Connie that has more experience with canine specific nutrition, or invest some time collecting research. If you look on the net try to stick with sites that end in .edu.

As a side note:
If you have any children interested in dogs, Canine nutrition is a great field to get into. I have been writing down research topics for some time and it seems to me there is a lot of money to be made.

 Quote: Jeff Cambeis

I feel very uncomfortable telling someone how much Vita E is right for their dog. For one thing it depends upon the individual dogs body size, age, activity and metabolism.

I misread your earlier post; I read it to mean that dogs do not need ingested E because they manufacture what they need. They do not.

Totally correct that there is a base, and that doubling the weight does not indicate the vitamin amount be doubled. E, for example, is needed in greater amounts if there are conditions in the dog's life that indicate it. No grass-fed slaughter meat, the ingestion of beneficial oil supplements, exposure to toxins, and other factors greatly affect the need for E.

I recommend 100-200 IU for small dogs and 200-400 IU for big dogs because the actual probable need falls in there, but the gelcaps don't come in smaller gradations. On this scale, a 12-pound dog would get 100 and a 100-pound dog would get 400. (As you say, doubling the weight does not require doubling the vitamin.)

Hi Jeff,

I wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something dangerous and from what you and Connie have explained, it appears I have not.

Whew!

Thank you both for the links and the education.

 Quote: Jeff Cambeis

Let say at a maximum the body can absorb a total combined amount of 1000 units of E,A, and K. By increasing amount of E you decrease the amount of K and A absorbed.

Absolutely correct.

Again, more is not better.

Use the E that your dog needs and does not get in his food. The dosages recommended on this board are well within the parameters where absorption of other oil-soluble vitamins is not affected.

 Quote: Michelle Berdusco

A nutritionally inbalanced diet or in this case, too much vit e will not show up in the blood work. I guess it would if it started to affect the organs but many people error in thinking because the blood is good then the diet is good.

Definately not the case.

Vitamin E levels can be determined by bloodwork. For example, in a human, normal levels would be 12-42micromoles/L.

Mineral levels, too, are readily tested for via bloodwork, including calcium and phosphorous.