Steve, many many many things can provoke responses from a dog. Just because someone did not try to hurt or touch the dog or look at them doesn't mean those people didn't do something that triggered the dog's aggression. It does mean that the dog should be with an experience handler that can read dogs very well. Dogs are very rarely unstable or attack unprovoked.

The fact that the dog didn't growl means there were either other signals that were missed or it was a fear/defense/nervous reaction. Fast aggressive movements even when not directed at the dog, bending over, or standing up suddenly or turning around quickly etc. Lots of things.

What kind of training has been done with Ceasar? Has he had any OB training? Is he crate trained? Inside/Outside? How long have you been having these issues with his aggression? Is it always the same person or different people? What can you remember were similar/the same about each incident where he went to bite someone?

"Unprovoked" bites is a huge red flag! Sharp, nervy and under socialized as a youngster {possibly} are huge reasons to..

A)Find an owner willing to responsibly accept a dog like this.
B)Failing "A"..put the dog down or suffer the consequences.

Sorry if it sounds harsh but when it comes to big dogs and little children getting seriously hurt, I draw the line at being less than tactful.

Howard

Howard while I agree, I must add:

Has this dog ever been around children prior to this experience, Steve? What ages, if so?

I know a lot of dogs that are not a good match with children for varying reasons from large waggy boisterous dog with a tail being at face height of small children to small prey driven dogs that nip or bite fast moving kids to dogs that just try to dominate everyone and wind up in a bad situation with a child. Not saying it is excusable but I work with people and dogs in situations just like this and it is rarely the dog's fault or problem.

Steve, do some reading. Crate the dog and work on pack structure and do not allow him to be loose around strangers. If things do not improve and perhaps even if they do, get a professional trainer that has experience with aggression to eval and work with you or help you place the dog in a home where he can be properly handled and trained.

Edited by Jennifer Marshal (05/28/2008 08:24 PM)
Edit reason: spelling

Thank you all very much for your responses, I greatly appreciate your feedback.

The party I am speaking of was with 30 people, of which 25 were very close friends and family that Ceasar has been in contact with since he was a puppy on a weekly to daily basis and has always done great with(our family lives within miles from eachother.) I completely agree with Will that a few unprovoked bites are a big thing and that the little girl was harmed although luckily not seriously. I recognize that it could have been much much worse. My wording was incorrect- I was trying to get across that though serious in nature they were very luckily not serious injuries in the past instances. I am doing everything I can to educate myself, protect people and provide my dog the care he needs. What confuses me as well as he does not do this with all strangers, there have been many times when he took no notice of the new people.

Before purchasing the breed I did research, spoke with people that had them and always had the dog described to me as the 'gentle giant' that Shannon referred to and one that was good with children. I have been proactive with Ceasar since he was a puppy taking him to obedience training and socializing him (which my vet and trainer informed me to do). He is very good with people he knows, very playful, lovable and a joy to have around which is why I let him be a part of our outdoor party.

I realize now that this was very selfish of me to have him at the party when he should have been in his crate away from the group. He genuinely enjoys being around humans and I felt I could control the situation with the muzzle and monitoring. I knew of the few strangers that were coming to the party and warned them beforehand to not come outside until I properly introduced them to Ceasar (the way my trainer showed me to do). Once the 'strangers' arrived and were introduced to Ceasar he did great with them, as was mentioned above. He has been around children since he was a puppy as well and never showed any agression to them, just playfulness. I realize now that I was very wrong to have him a part of the party, and am very thankful that I have the opportunity to learn from it. I of course was aware that the breed is a guard dog. Shannon, could you please elaborate on stating "This is what a Neo does".

I do not think I am unable to handle him, he listens very well to my commands and I am willing to do whatever it takes to keep people safe and him obedient. The safety of my neighbors and friends is of the utmost importance to me. I am hoping to learn more about this specific instance and the steps I need to take from here. If it turns out the best thing for my dog and neighbors is to get Ceasar to another home I am prepared to do so and would appreciate your input on finding qualified owners as well.

Steve,

Had the above information been mentioned earlier I would not have come off as an ass about this. It appears from your last post that you have indeed done more work with your boy than you let on. We can only go by what is written and you definately didn't reveal enough information. That said...Jennifer is giving some good advice, as are a couple other people here.

Howard

 Quote:

Shannon, could you please elaborate on stating "This is what a Neo does".

Sorry, what I meant to say was "This is what a a neo does when showing dominance over other dogs/people. They pin them down with their chest.

I definitely think the biggest issue you have here is pack structure. When given even the smallest window to take over, a dominant neo will run the show. There is a reason why the majority of neo's that come into rescue are around 18 months--
*that is the age when nature and maturity take over
*they reach full size and people have not done the work to train them appropriately
*training a 150 lb dog is hard!

If you are willing to do the work it can be done.

Shannon

 Quote: Steve Packard

I am willing to do whatever it takes to keep people safe and him obedient.

Then keep him under your direct control 100% around people and 100% contained when you can not pay full attention.

Not trying to be nasty at all...but that is part of the responsibility of owning a dog, IMO.

And it's advice I follow myself: My GSD doesn't have any of the issues with people that you describe your dog as having and there is NO way I would have had him involved in a party like that even if he'd met each and every one of them a billion times. His prey drive alone is enough to have me worried around that much chaos. When in doubt, always err on the side of caution.

Great advice given by others. Consider it a lucky lesson learned (in that no one was seriously hurt) and remember that in almost all of the stories you read about in the paper with people getting bitten...almost none of the dogs were commanded to do so. It's almost ALWAYS because of situations like the one you described: lack of proper supervision and containment and to be honest it makes me crazy because it's always other people and the dog who pays the price.

The muzzle shows that you were trying to take precautions and that's a great sign. Now you know you need even more...again, err on the side of caution.

Keep up with the training and the supervision. If you can keep him supervised and contained 100% and keep up with your training then you (and the dog) will be better for it. If you honestly can't be sure you can do that, then rehome. Euthanization isn't an option I would consider...this was not the dog's fault, IMO.

 Quote: Shannon Reed

All our neos are trained with these methods and the Pack Structure Video is a requirement for anyone who has ever inquired about getting a dog from us--no exceptions.

That's an excellent requirement. I wish more breeders would do that.

To Jennifer, Ceasar has had OB training 10 weeks with group, 4 weeks 1 to 1, He is crate trained inside. The aggression started actually at training never any sign before (8 mos. old). The only thing I can recall that was the same at each bite is that it was very fast, the bite can after a grunt then the lunge at the person, always to a stranger no similarities between people. Never has bit another dog( have had four different dogs play with him, never aggressive). Trainer advised that he was dominant and that he had high fight drive. Never really touched on prey drive. He has alot of contact with children growing up from 4yrs to 15yrs never any aggression. Twin 5yr olds over all the time with full contact.

 Quote: Steve Packard

Luckily the little girl was completly unharmed with a dirty dress and small scratch on her arm.

This is what stood out at me....this little girl may have been unharmed physically, but what about mentally.

I know, I know, this is a dog training forum, but we all must remember that with dogs and situations like this, emotional damage can occur and affect people for the rest of their lives.

We MUST keep our dogs in our control when around people. Especially children.