When I watched the Ed's puppy video I took the bitter apple to be used for furniture, clothes etc.., not people. I could be wrong since I am a newbie. I would love to get some clarification about this.

 Quote: randy allen

Does ED really advocate this bitter apple cotton ball thing??!!!

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

I saw that on one of the DVDs I bought from his online store. I think it was the '8 weeks to 8 months'.

It is not to punish the dog but to have it associate that the mere scent of it is something rather unpleasant.

I liken it to teaching the 'yuck' command, except it's a pop on the collar rather than the lingering memory of a God-awful taste.

I did not use this method though, since my puppy wasn't destructive towards our personal property. Just human limbs ... and that eventually goes away with consistency and age.

And trust me, we did everything with her. Every tried and true method. But she eventually got over it - thank goodness - and is blossoming into a lovely young teenager.

So take heart. Hehe. It will soon pass. Trust those of us who had to deal with furry 'gators the first few weeks.

And the bitter apple training does not apply to human parts. But I suppose you can try, if you like. I would rather use consistent training to teach the puppy not to bite hard, so it understands that it is not acceptable.

 Quote: randy allen

Does ED really advocate this bitter apple cotton ball thing??!!!

Sorry, but it's nothing I would ever use..........for anything.


If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

To apply to things you don't want chewed.... not the use above.

I don't understand the problem? A puppy is chewing on a person. OK? And?

Lets stick cotton balls with bitter apple in a babies mouth when he pukes up on our clothes too while we're at it. Or... could it possibly be, that babies outgrow the puking-on-mommies-clothes phase with age and maturity?? Golly gee willikers skippy, I think we hit on something here!

Wow. This is a very sarcastic response, and I'm wondering if that is really necessary after all the constructive advice given in previous posts. As a new puppy owner, I have come to trust and value the advice given here, but if I were mocked, I don't think I'd feel comfortable posting another question. Mike, obviously, you are a seasoned dog owner with lots of experience. Please try to remember back when you were a new puppy owner and appreciate that she came to this site for advice, not judgement. JMO.

Susan, there are 13 pages of different threads all relating to puppy's biting and nipping. This question comes up so frequently that I wonder if people ever take the time to read anything else on the forum before posting their question? Does everybody want a personalized answer to the same question?

To the OP, I do apologize if I was too sarcastic, but after reading the "new puppy growled. need help" thread prior to this one about shoving cotton balls in puppies mouths for nipping at people, it brought down my patience level quite a bit.

Puppy biting and nipping can be summed up in less than 3 sentences. It absolutely astounds me when I see how creative and over analytical people get on this subject. It's like people forget that a dog is an animal that has nothing but his instincts.

On top of which, I care more about the puppy than I do about the owner. The bitter apple on a cotton ball should only be done once or twice to make the puppy hate the taste, so that in future, everything that smells like bitter apple is no longer appealing to chew on. Personally I wouldn't use bitter apple at all, but that's a different matter.

This should NOT be done EVERY SINGLE TIME and it will not only hurt the puppies trust in its owners if he thinks he's gonna get a cotton ball shoved in his mouth every time he runs over to daddy to play, but its also just plain mean to shove something into a puppies mouth repeatedly and forcing it to stay in there for 10 or 15 seconds each time. For a puppy to still remember this in 6 weeks he must be really traumatized by it for it to make such a lasting impact. If he still does it in 6 weeks then it must not be very effective and you're putting that all on your puppy for nothing. Puppies learn from consistency not punishment.

Just to clarify *my* use of the bitter apple, our pup was very very mouthy. He was never put in a position where he could destroy anything (always under supervision during this stage.) As time went on(he was a little older) he seemed to still be very mouthy towards human hands, especially mine. Our trainer suggested we try it; so we did the hold the cotton in the mouth just once, and then I sprayed it on my hands/arms the next couple times I was around the pup and it worked like a charm! I remember those frustrating days of puppyhood, and I remember the feeling of helplessness, and like that stage will never end!

And, FYI, this site is pretty overwhelming to new people. There are so many posts, and so much information.

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

Puppy biting and nipping can be summed up in less than 3 sentences. It absolutely astounds me when I see how creative and over analytical people get on this subject.

...

The bitter apple on a cotton ball should only be done once or twice to make the puppy hate the taste ...This should NOT be done EVERY SINGLE TIME.

I figured that was what the method was being understood as - to create a negative association, so the mere smell of it would deter the puppy from inanimate objects.

Mr Frawley is very clear and concise, and it is quite difficult to misinterpret his methods.

Also, there will always be new owners who mistake puppy exuberance and curiosity for aggressive nipping. This misinterpretation will never go away, especially if they haven't done too much research prior/first time puppy owners.

And they will continue to post these questions. It is a forum after all. So we might as well make the best of it, and offer constructive advise as provided in this thread or simply ignore the thread altogether.

If the method currently employed is not progressive in teaching the puppy, then we can offer alternative ways and explain why the current training is detrimental to the puppy's development.

Like in this case of shoving bitter apple cotton balls every time the puppy 'goes after' the husband. But she has been advised to use consistent training and understanding to deal with the matter, and hopefully she and her husband will correct themselves.

~ Rei

Edited by Rei Chee (06/19/2008 12:31 PM)
Edit reason: grammar

Wow! How time flies these days! I wanted to thank Stephanie, Sarah, Al, Matt, Rhonda & Susan for great (constructive) advice & also for understanding ~ these folks are the reason that I come here. Regarding the 'sharper-tongued' posts...I have thick skin. ;o)

I hadn't read all of the posts that applied to my original query & when I did...I thought it best (at this late date) to respond in an effort to clarify things a bit.

The problem that we experienced w/Cozi was an escalating, ongoing & troubling issue (hence the reason for seeking advice). When my husband would come home from work...Cozi would (fairly immediately) grab onto his pants, shirt, skin (completely unprovoked). Most times...he would tug & growl ~ often breaking skin, which resulted in blood shed. It was NOT cute & I did not view it as puppy play/normal puppy behavior. My husband was the ONLY person that Cozi would treat in this manner.

Believe me...we attempted many other methods prior to the Bitter Apple method, to absolutely no avail. We put him in his crate, attempted re-direction w/his favorite ball, took him for a short walk, immobilized him, ignored him, briefly held him up off the ground ~ all of these methods were ineffective.

By the time I began to consider the Bitter Apple method, I had been 'consistently' applying these alternative methods w/o the benefit of any positive effect. Believe me when I tell you that I struggled w/the Bitter Apple method for quite some time ~ I did not like the idea at all. I read everything that I could find about the positive & negative effects...& I also attempted to find an alternative product (something w/o alcohol in it).

I had gone over Ed's DVD (Your Puppy 8 Weeks --> 8 Months ~ Track #19 ~ Behavioral Problems) several times up to that point (I also took notes!) & I was aware that his recommendations were for 'chewing' issues. Cozi was ripping/tugging John's clothing while it was ON his body...therefore, I thought that the Bitter Apple method might be worth a try. Ed recommended twice/day x 1 minute for 3 days to imprint the displeasure of the taste on the puppy. I did not follow the time recommendations (because Cozi had not & has never destroyed or chewed any of our personal property ~ aside from John's clothing when it was ON his body ~ as he's always under my supervision ~ even now). I also found it maddeningly difficult to hold a BA-soaked cotton ball in his little mouth for more than 10-15 seconds! Consequently, the BA method wasn't utilized for long & we soon abandoned the method (2/3 of the original bottle remain!). We did spray it on John's clothing & his skin. This did NOT deter Cozi at all.

To Al...it was my mistake for not clarifying the information contained in my post. We did not utilize the BA method constantly...& it was fairly easy to determine 'puppy playfulness' vs. something more serious. He ripped John's clothing w/his sharp little teeth...he tugged at anything attached to John...shaking his head like he'd do when he played w/his favorite toy. Often, he'd draw blood, as well as growl quite passionately. All of this behavior was completely unprovoked & only directed toward my husband when he came home from work (or from where ever).

Yes, Randy...the cotton ball 'thing' is on the DVD...the only difference is that I used it in a situation other than the one that Ed described in his DVD.

Maisha & Rei...my intent was not punishment what-so-ever ~ as his behavior involved the destruction of clothing that was ON my husband's body, including his socks...I tried the BA method, as nothing else that we tried up to that point was successful. A 'mouthy' puppy is an expectation...a guarantee, I agree! THIS behavior was quite different (& cause for concern), IMHO. BTW...there were 'OTHER' parts of my husband that Cozi would go after, as well ~ if you know what I mean...this was certainly NOT funny!

Lastly, to Mike...my original query was prefaced w/an apology, w/regard to the possibility of 'missing' this particular issue somewhere in the forum's archives. I did not come here & simply post 'willy nilly'. I lurked here for MONTHS before I finally registered & I purchased 3 of Ed's DVDs long before I ever received Cozi. I spent MONTHS & MONTHS reviewing, researching & talking w/professionals to better prepare myself for my new puppy. Also...I distinctly took ownership of the issue being 'my fault'; however, I had no idea (past the interventions that I had already tried) how to resolve the issue. To clarify one other misunderstanding...I stated that Cozi was 'tethered' from the time he came home to me at 8 weeks ~ NOT that we had been using the BA method for 6 weeks! You had mentioned that your 'patience level' had been 'brought down' by 2 posts ~ thus your sarcasm...apology accepted.

I suppose that I should have been more comprehensive in my original post, as I have been in this one ~ please accept my apologies for that. While I have made mistakes in the past w/dogs that I have raised...it is my most sincere goal to avoid making those mistakes (in addition to learning from them!). Cozi is very much loved. He is a very happy & healthy puppy. And...I try to do right by him every day. )

On a more positive note...Cozi obtained his CGC a few weeks ago! I was very proud of him! He has been an exceptional puppy & he is quite an awesome addition to our household!

Does he still misbehave when my husband comes home? Absolutely...but not to the extent that he once did. John has not demonstrated an interest in training Cozi ~ therefore, it is a little difficult for me to correct his misbehavior aside from removing Cozi from my husband's presence for a short time after he comes home. I am hoping that, as Cozi matures (& w/consistent training) he'll chill out more & more (as he's already done).

Again...thank you to all who have provided advice & insight.

Dana.