 Re: No Drive?!
[Re: John Andrews ]
#199857 - 06/23/2008 09:24 PM |
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In what way is that not rude?
And in what way does that answer any of the O.P.'s questions?
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Re: No Drive?!
[Re: Craig Brown ]
#199858 - 06/23/2008 09:30 PM |
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Yeah was thinking about trying rag,tug and food next. I'm currently using a kong on rope but his drive is quite volatile.
Heck, yeah!
I missed the thing about the kong on a rope. That would have to be filled with food to interest many dogs. 
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Re: No Drive?!
[Re: Craig Brown ]
#199861 - 06/23/2008 09:59 PM |
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I'm guessing there are mostly German Shepherds where you train Craig, and when you see how driven they are for that toy and how it's used in training them you want to do it the same. Not every dog whatever lines is going to train the same. I get certain results with toys and I get faster better results with food for a lot of things. Go with what works, you can get some pretty good drive with food by working at a quick pace and using intermitant rewards. Combined with a clicker for marking you may be surprised at what you get.
http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/192494/page/1#Post192494
This thread has some good thoughts on building drive to read. I really like Roni Hoff's explanation on why we play tug with our dogs.
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Re: No Drive?!
[Re: steve strom ]
#199862 - 06/23/2008 10:22 PM |
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I was worried about my GSD. He is from good working lines but I thought I got the couch potatoe. At around 7 mnths life has changed IMMENSELY. Up until that date I always trained with food because it motivated him the best. Almost over night the dog has great focus and drive for balls.
I have never read anything so lazy as the suggestion of getting rid of your dog. My dog has papers to put all to shame but apparently a late bloomer. The likes of John would definately not have stuck with him. I am just now starting to see the rewards.
I think it is fun to figure out what makes each individual dog tick.
Michelle
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Re: No Drive?!
[Re: Michelle Berdusco ]
#199884 - 06/24/2008 02:55 AM |
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Thanks guys. I'm just about to go and buy one of those rubber balls on rope and i've also stolen a dish cloth from the kitchen. A friend of mine has the DVD drive, focus and grip so i'll go around and check it out today or tomorrow.
I've realised that a lot of the work we're doing is just plain rubbish! We spend nearly 2hours on the obedience and by that time he's no drive left. We also use so much control such as in the send outs where the dog first has to down, then sit, then it goes out half hartedly and the down before it is rewarded...
There is only one or two gsd's there as it is mainly a rottweiler club and yes the gsd's have a bit more drive although they are only showlines. I know I need a working gsd and that is what i'm looking for. I still want to train my current dog to his max though.
I think i'll give the food a try after the ball/rag and see how that goes. I also listened to the marker podcast lastnight and want to start it today. I just need to get used to ALWAYS have some food in my pocket.
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Re: No Drive?!
[Re: Craig Brown ]
#199886 - 06/24/2008 03:17 AM |
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Hi Craig,
My experience with Rotties is limited, but the ones I have seen are always much more interested in food than anything else. I have seen some great OB from Rotties that have no interest in playing with balls or tugs, but are crazy for smelly foods like hotdogs.
With a dog that isn't super up-beat about the work, you as a handler need to be INCREDIBLY animated and active. You need to really get the dog "up" in his enthusiasm.
Also, doing too much control work with a dog that isn't even motivated for the work (yet) is a bad idea. You'll break the dogs desire to do things before the dog even learns how to do them properly. Your club doesn't sound all that great to be honest. Are there other clubs you could visit?
We all gotta do what we can with the dog we have. No point in making the dog into what he isn't, i've seen nice dogs ruined that way, but as long as there are no delusions about about what the dog is capable of, there's nothing wrong with taking a dog as far as they are willing to go!
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Re: No Drive?!
[Re: Mike J Schoonbrood ]
#199908 - 06/24/2008 09:21 AM |
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Craig: Please remember that what you are learning with this dog is invaluable. Yes, it is harder to work with a dog that doesn't have a ton of drive, but finding what will work with this dog, what will bring out his drive, is what will help you become an excellent handler in the long run. I do believe that you will find what works for this dog.
I completely agree with everything Mike said, and have also seen some great OB from rotties who work for food. I would probably remove any complusion until I brought up the drive, possibly forever in OB with this dog.
Two hours is about 1 hr 50 minutes too long. Work him no more than 10 min at a time (if that). Make sure your ob sessions are very short and sweet, try to stop when the dog is still fresh before he quits. It is super important that you end on an upbeat, good note with a dog like this. Better to work 4 or 5 very short sessions every day than one long one.
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Re: No Drive?!
[Re: Craig Brown ]
#199910 - 06/24/2008 09:34 AM |
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Hi Craig, it can be fun to experiment too. I remember spending money on balls and tugs and having my dog just sit there and look at me funny (a Doberman; German working lines/American show lines...gasp;-) I Love GSD's, and Mals even more than GSD's but Dobes will always be my favorite;-) Anyway, after a lot of just play without expectations, my dog really started loving the toys. I tied the tug or ball to the end of a long horse lunging whip and let my pup chase it around and he LOVED it! Now I can raise and lower drive just by the reward I choose: He'll work equally well for food or his ball, but is so nutzo for his tug that I can only use it as a final or special reward because it's too distracting for teaching new behaviors. Most of the time I teach a new behavior with a clicker and food, and it works just fine. Have fun experimenting with what works for you and your Rottie and I'm sure it will work out great. 
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Re: No Drive?!
[Re: Kristel Smart ]
#199934 - 06/24/2008 10:47 PM |
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I agree with the others and especially Mike & Susan. 2 hours is insanely long obedience for any breed. 10 mins is a good rule of thumb, adjust the time accordingly to how good he's doing that day, but the shorter the better.
I too have seen some very pretty obedience routines from Rotties and they were mainly trained with food. They usually have major food drive. Use what THEY give YOU to train them.
Edited by Alex Corral (06/24/2008 10:49 PM)
Edit reason: missed a word
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Re: No Drive?!
[Re: JessicaKromer ]
#199938 - 06/25/2008 06:43 AM |
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I think a good start for you would be to purchase "Building Drive and Focus" with Bernard Flinks and remember to have the dog
pick his toy. You may have inadvertantly squashed his drive with adding obedience to his game before his drive was established.
Go back to basics. The tape will really help! Keep us posted.
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