Quote: Siaty Mantak

Unfortunately, in Toronto, mace and pepper spray are illegal.

I am in no way suggesting anything illegal, but laws like that confuse me. I have a question is Tabasco sauce and a super soaker illegal?

For the thought that you shouldn’t have engaged the owner why not if they realizes you don’t want your dog socialized with strange dogs and still does nothing let her have it. I mean she is doing something that most people would find inappropriate they even have a passed laws in his city saying not to do it.

It isn’t like he was in the off leash pen complaining about a dog off leash. The dog hadn’t even escaped from the pen the own had set the dog on the ground with full knowledge that it was not allowed and acted offended when someone confronted her on her disobedience.

The best thing that could happen is he made her scared of big men at the dog park. So now she no longer will take Fito to the park.

I mean its one thing to not know how to control your dog and still care, but something else to be so conceited that they don’t consider others feelings. I think you may have done more good with the statement that you will crack her dogs skull open than any other see she will tell that story the rest of her life and everyone that hears it will think twice about allowing their dog to do the same.

I just posted a similar story Betty's Bad Day

I just don't "get" the mentality of dog owners today. I think it may have something to do with the "dogs as fashion accessories" culture.

I'm not a lawyer, but I am a 2nd year law student. Although Assault and Battery are intentional torts, intent is either the desire to cause apprehension of (assault), or the knowledge to a substantial certainty that one's action will result in the harmful or offensive touching of the person of the plaintiff.

If you are attached, by a leash, to your dog, then that dog is a "part" of your person, as would be a cane, a hat, or a lunch tray.

Kicking the other dog, spraying it with mace, or otherwise fending off the harmful or offensive touching is, in mind, self defense.

The stupidity of some people just blows my mind.

This past weekend we had over 8 SAR dogs swimming and playing in the lake, when someone else (outside the team) drove up with their dog. We put all our dogs on their leashes and left. Sad that we had to end our dogs' fun, but with the number of idiots in the world increasing exponentially by the hour, it wasn't worth the risk.

 Quote: Siaty Mantak

a woman with a small white terrier-type dog was also coming up the path toward us. However, her dog was off-leash and as I maneuvered my pup to be on the other side of me (so that I was between the oncoming pair) her dog charged at my pup. I immediately stepped in between my pup and her dog and that was when her dog started growling and attempted to charge in to my pup.

Siaty,

The very second that the dog charged at you off leash is when he became a soccer ball with fur. The only way for you to handle that situation is to physically repel the dog yourself. Anything else is subject to interpretation, and therefore a no win situation for you since the big bad GSD will always just be picking on the sweet little fluffball. Dogs have no rights, they are property. You have rights including the right to defend yourself and when a dog is off leash in a public place or has entered your private property you have the right to defend yourself including lethal force if necessary. The lady needs to get a clue, and be greatful it was not me because she would have been on the punt return team .

Depending on the self-defense laws in each state, your right to self-defense extends to threats against your personal property (ie, your dog).

It varies state to state, and I'd see what your says.

 Quote: Michael Haddon

 Quote: Siaty Mantak

Unfortunately, in Toronto, mace and pepper spray are illegal.

I am in no way suggesting anything illegal, but laws like that confuse me. I have a question is Tabasco sauce and a super soaker illegal?

Unless it is a local bylaw in Toronto proper .. Dog repellent is not illegal in Canada.

http://www.macecanada.com/canada/product/sabre.htm

As for other physical deterents a 0.8m piece of 5/8 garden hose slapped on the ground in front of a approaching dog would suffice to deter in further advance and slap across the ribs with the hose would send pretty well any dog yipping back to momma.

I don't condone violence in any form but I've seen some pretty nasty dog fights in my time. The best defense against them is to avoid places like the dog parks, even if you are not in the fenced in 'off leash' area. It just doesn't guarantee that some bozo like you describe will be waltzing outside the area with Fluffy or Brutus 'off leash' and then the fun begins.

We got attacked once by 4 medium Schnauzer type of dogs when we were outside a 'off leash' park. (not unlike OP) They came running around the fence through the entrance and engaged my Malinois when she was 5 months old. My daughter was holding our dog and she was getting it from all sides I had my 3 year old son with me so I was trying to protect him too. I was able to pin one of the little bastids under my walking stick, I had the stick across the back of it's neck with my weight on it. The owner of the schnauzers was able to get them under control. But the damage to my dog's pysche took months and months to get her so she wouldn't react aggressively to other dogs.

As for the OP situation. I just don't think that the benefit of exercising my dog anywhere close to one of these stupid parks is worth it. Plus to possibly put my pup in a situation like that ever again is downright reckless of me.

If I were you I'd start looking at doing a tracking class or joining a Shutzhund or other dog sport club. To me the benefits of something more organized than the free for all at a 'dog park' is worth it.

1. You and the dog will be mentored by experienced like minded people.
2. Their dogs are well trained and socialized.
3. You will bring the bond you have with your dog up to higher level.
4. Many other benefits that I am not recalling at this point.

That's what I'd be looking at .. YMMV

The situation you described is my worst nightmare because I have a DA dog. Now she is trained but in those situations she is up off her front legs by the collar. Folks tend to think all doggys love to sunggle and romp, sadly this is simply not the case. I have even been chided to let her down to "play". I always remain calm and tell the other owners my dogs play is not something they would appreciate. It is important to stay calm - at least for me as I have PBs and folks expect me to be a gangsta...*rolls eyes*

I was out with my male, 45 lb APBT. He is very good with other dogs but no one but me knows that. I was walking home and the evening doggy play group folks were gathered. This little black dust mop took off and charged the old boy. I stepped between the two and commanded "NO". The little mongrol (all 11 lbs of him) slipped inbetween my legs and proceeded to jump at my muscle bound male PB. Up on his hind legs he went. The owner said to me "Oh don't worry my boy is not DA!" I looked at this man in disbelief...like I was worried my PB would be assaulted by his 11 lb hair ball. I calmly shook my head and said "It's not my dog I am fearful for". The man looked at me with a confused look and I walked home after he picked the little black aggressor up. I just don't get people like this.

 Quote: Valerie Tietz-Kelly

The man looked at me with a confused look and I walked home after he picked the little black aggressor up. I just don't get people like this.

Oh I so totally get this Val. As you may remember my story about the Schnauzers attacking Sasha was one of the first things I ever posted about here and you gave me advice about it at the same time back in Feb 07.

At that point I was worried that Sasha was DA like your female or Jennifer Mullen's Teagan. She was borderline at the time but she didn't sneak about looking for opportunities to attack when the handlers guard was down. She was more sensitive to dogs that were off leash who got in her face and would go into defense.

In my original post in this thread I stated ..

 Quote: Geoff Empey

But the damage to my dog's pysche took months and months to get her so she wouldn't react aggressively to other dogs.

This was accomplished by regular training work and exposure to other 'calm balanced' dogs in the local GSD obedience club. She started to understand that not all dogs were like the exposure to the 4 nutso schnauzers. She has her quirks as she has grown into a normal working line confident intact female, with those normal dominant traits that go along with that though. To me that comes with that territory.

We had a break through and realization this past weekend that to me says she is 'not' DA and all my hard work has paid off desensitizing her to negative dog influence.

We went up to a lake after Ringsport training with most of the club's dogs, which
included 8 Malinois, (4 female) 1 female cattle dog and a male Giant Schnauzer. All intact btw. It was funny seeing them frolicking in the water and tripping up the trial running circles around each other on the way to the lake. There was only one thing that could be construed as a incident (which wasn't) was when Sasha and her 1/2 sister eyed each other over a retrieve article in the water but we didn't let it escalate.

Sure the 4 handlers including myself are all experienced handlers with 2 of us being Sasha's breeder and a lady who is one of the most talented and experienced handlers I know.

Even with that I would have to say I'm very pleased with the progress with Sasha and the trip to the lake with all those dogs was a highlight spotlighting how far we have come for me. Maybe not like getting Sasha's FR Brevet but a milestone none the less.

 Quote: alyssa myracle

The stupidity of some people just blows my mind.

This past weekend we had over 8 SAR dogs swimming and playing in the lake, when someone else (outside the team) drove up with their dog. We put all our dogs on their leashes and left. Sad that we had to end our dogs' fun, but with the number of idiots in the world increasing exponentially by the hour, it wasn't worth the risk.

Alyssa, could you clarify this? It sounds like you and other people had 8 off-leash dogs at a public place. Someone else showed up with an off-leash dog, and this person was "an idiot"? Did he or she do something, annoy your dogs, or anything? Was this private property? Did the person know he or she was intruding on a private party?

If you had to "end the fun" because someone else showed up and you don't want your dog interacting with strange dogs, that is an action that you chose to make and I don't see how the other person is at fault. I have also made this choice and I have to "end my dog's fun" even if they are on leash, all the time, because of others showing up. But the others have a right to be there too. I often have to bring my dogs in from the yard because my neighbors are outside, they have a right to be in their backyards without being barked at.

I myself don't like being approached by off leash dogs (especially since there is a local leash law), but if my dog is also off leash (as one time one of my dogs got out of the back yard into the park and was barking at a lady walking her off-leash dog) then really, I can't say anything - we are BOTH in the wrong for having dogs off-leash in a public place.

In an instance where I am walking my leashed dogs and someone's off-leash dog approaches, THAT is when, in my opinion, the owner needs to be warned and the offending dog dealt with. I have even threatened to call the police in one case. I was in the right and in compliance with the law, and the other person was not only breaking the law but also making me feel threatened and removing my right to enjoyment of the common/public area.

If off-leash dogs are allowed, then I don't go to that place.

That said - yesterday I was in a very crowded area during Canada Day celebrations with one of my dogs. He is great with people and dogs who mind their own business. He was on leash and heeling nicely. Some other guy walking a large male obviously dominant Lab, also on leash, allowed his dog, ears and tail up, to come up and sniff my (dominant male) dog rather than walking past. Before I could say anything to the guy, the two dogs "had words" and the guy quickly pulled his dog away and apologized. The kicker? the dog is a foster and had an "adopt me" vest on. The crowd was thick and of course the little scuffle attracted attention, and it wasnt good attention. Now my dog looked aggressive. Wonderful, so much for trying to get this dog positive exposure so he'll be adopted!

It is sad that even when dogs are on leash, owners are still idiots and allow their dogs to just go up to any strange dog and do whatever they want. Some guy let his 9-week-old Golden retreiver puppy come right up to him and encouraged this. Some other idiot let his what appeared to be 6 or 7 month old male Ridgeback puppy to drag his owner over to my dog's BEHIND - yeah that's a good one, that dog isn't even looking let's sneak up on him.