This is one of the better subjects and point of views I have read hear in a while. This is the stuff that was posted frequently when I first started looking at this web site. Lets get back to this rather than just gossip.

Great post, Kevin, well done.

 Quote: mitch kuta

... Lets get back to this rather than just gossip.

All it takes is a post. And an answer.

And so on.

"Let's do this..." doesn't really do it.

 Quote: Kevin Sheldahl

Please see my above post. You are correct but incomplete in your observations. Ring being a quiet sport relies on keeping the dog just barely tweaking into what some people group as defense (I refuse to use the term and either use fight or combat instincts vs. self defense which is fear related) and prey. Self-defense and Ring as you point out are pretty incompatable these days.

 Quote: Geoff Empey

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

I forgot who said it, but a while ago If my dog is going into defense every time the decoy raises the stick then I have the wrong dog.

This would also to me point out that a dog like this is a powder keg waiting to turn into a fear biter. If it isn't already.

I do Ringsport and all my dog's bitework has been done in prey, her biting has not suffered a bit by never being put into defense.

Prey = the dog wants to ... Defense = the Dog has to ... To me for sport anyways I'd rather have a dog that wants to work it will do anything anytime for the team. Where the flip side you have a dog that mopes around the field and is always nervous wondering where the next whip across it's back may come from.

I've seen 2 young dogs where in their foundation bitework they were put into defense these dogs are next to useless. They lunge at the decoy try to bite him on the shoulder etc even when the sleeve or large tug is presented to them. Needless to say these dogs were ruined. They shouldn't even be allowed on the field IMHO.

I don't do Schutzhund, though we do both sports FR & SchH in this club I belong to. I help out with laying tracks and other duties. So I more observe and help on handler issues that is as far as go with SchH.

I agree Kevin that the dog in Schutzhund needs to show intent for the bark and hold. But then what is considered 'intent'? We have a dog in the club ... So anyways this dog doesn't really bark .. she Klacks her teeth and is really forward but she does lose points because she is not vocal enough, she is intense and hits the decoy hard on the escape no problem except for the bark. Then we have another whose B&H is downright scary his bark parts the decoys hair everytime it is pretty cool to watch. But the klacking female's teeth show intent as well, just not in the same dramatic loud fashion.

I'm not sure what you mean by Ring being a quiet sport. The blind search in FR requires a bark and hold as well. All the other guards such as the defense of handler, gun attack and blindsearch with escort all have a guard and optional bark. The Blind search the bark is mandatory but mostly everyone goes for training a bark in any of the guards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDBzaunJiGk Look at the defense of handler here @ 1:10 the out @ 1:22 during the attack with revolver. At 2:29 the Blind search with escort.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfkGHzHdues This is my friend Stacey's dog Loki, Loki was blind in one eye but yet he was still a great dog to see in competition. I wish I would've been able to seen him live as he passed away last year. At 50 secs you see Loki's guards with the attack with revolver that's a pretty intense bark.

 Quote: Kevin Sheldahl

(I refuse to use the term and either use fight or combat instincts vs. self defense which is fear related)

I whole heartedly agree Kevin .. My dog for instance loves to fight and the combat involved with the decoy.

When the Decoy lays down the baton on her she turns into a freak and is out to kick decoy butt. It is pretty intense to watch. She has the whole prey shake thing and the more they throw at her the more she likes it. Especially if they spin her or throw her around on top of the baton work. It just makes her grip harder.

Anyone who has met my dog in a social setting, have a whole other different viewpoint after seeing her work in protection. We still work her in prey and the groundwork was prey prey prey for like 2 months before we even started to ask for outs. She just loves the game and it shows in her work.

re: Working in Defense.

From what I see the basic groundwork for biting in FR or SchH is very close especially the tug work that is done initially. Then the leg sleeve vs the arm sleeve is the only difference. The game should still be fun even on the graduation from the tug to the sleeve. (leg or arm)

I really think that the problem with a lot of new green handlers with new dogs. Through no fault of their own get led down the path of self defense (training by fear) by some training directors/decoys that are trying to get maximum results in the least amount of time.

A dog may not bite at first but they may still insist and then back the dog into a corner ... Sure the dog bites .. the handler is happy the decoy did his job, but then at what cost to a young dog is that in the long run? Lots... IMO to many people get hung up on that word 'defense'..

In the Ring sports barking is pretty optional. Yes, there is an indication in the more advanced titles on a search for the helper. But, I have often seen BR dogs who are not really doing much of a guard, just an indication and something like 4 barks gains the points. It is just not a big part of the sport like the guard and bark is in schutzhund...especially in thhe SV. I had seen dogs in championship trials bark and look about for the handler, bark again and look about for the handler, by turning away from the decoy and stepping out to see where the handler was. This of course would get you tossed in a championship schh trial. Not saying one is better than the other. In the Ring the dogs are quiet, just listen. I use this term mimicking its use by the French I have had the chance to train with.
The only time you see a bit of fighting come into play in thhe Ring is when the dog is directly opposed. The dog then shows its genetics more than training and kicks into fighting instincts and then right back out not so much from training as from genetics.
In the KNPV we really see promotion of the guard ande bark work. It begins as youngsters guarding a box and even younger soemtimes guarding a plastic bottle. Interesting to observe the promotion of this work in a unique program such as KNPV. Often there is no grip being promoted in the search for the helper in their training. It is left to the strength of the dogs desire to fight and guard not the dogs desire to make prey that is used to promote the barking. Can you envision decoys not giving bites for fine barking is schutzhund today??? When I first started it wasn't real common but also not unheard of, but today it is more and more a promotion of prey drive as a drive satisfaction for the the barking phase. This I believe is due to a shift away from strong fighting instincts in the GSD's. Too bad if you ask me.

 Quote: Geoff Empey

I really think that the problem with a lot of new green handlers with new dogs. Through no fault of their own get led down the path of self defense (training by fear) by some training directors/decoys that are trying to get maximum results in the least amount of time.

A dog may not bite at first but they may still insist and then back the dog into a corner ... Sure the dog bites .. the handler is happy the decoy did his job, but then at what cost to a young dog is that in the long run? Lots... IMO to many people get hung up on that word 'defense'..

Good observation. I would also add that sometimes the TD/decoy whomever doesn't even realize they are throwing a dog into defense. Some dogs that line can be very blurred.

 Quote: keith jenkins

 Quote: geoff empey

I really think that the problem with a lot of new green handlers with new dogs. Through no fault of their own get led down the path of self defense (training by fear) by some training directors/decoys that are trying to get maximum results in the least amount of time.

A dog may not bite at first but they may still insist and then back the dog into a corner ... Sure the dog bites .. the handler is happy the decoy did his job, but then at what cost to a young dog is that in the long run? Lots... IMO to many people get hung up on that word 'defense'..

Good observation. I would also add that sometimes the TD/decoy whomever doesn't even realize they are throwing a dog into defense. Some dogs that line can be very blurred.

Especially now that a lot of the traditional protection type dogs the dobes, Rotts, ASSline GSDs their genetics for working have been bred out of them in North America. That blurry line threshold is easily crossed with dogs like that.

Plus the fact that there is so many (ahem) "Master Trainers" that have no business training a dog to bite out there. People really have to be careful of who they pass the leash to. It really is a buyer beware scenario looking for a trainer to teach a biting sport or personal protection.

This is an interesting discussion. From what I've been told, a dog can do an entire protection routine 100% in prey (barking included at a higher pitch) and provided all exercises are done correctly should receive a 99 point score even at high level events.

My personal opinion is that it is important to train in defense, and not just for a serious bark and hold. Most of us live with our dogs in the every day world, and if something happens that puts them into defense drive I want to be able to retain control and recognize it immediately while KNOWING what the dog will do as well as exactly what the dogs threshold for defense is. Having an experienced helper that knows how to introduce defense properly is priceless. Our TD starts with defense of the prey object at a relatively young age (when the dog is ready - which is different for every dog) moving on to drive switching depending on the picture the helper shows the dog (defense when squared up challenging the dog and prey when moving side to side). How much of that is solely defense and how much is the beginning stages of fight/aggression can be debatable from dog to dog. In addition, the dogs are taught that the MOST DANGEROUS of helper is the trial (limp, dead and without any reaction at all in the blind) helper by how hard the helper fights after the bite - and what that helper does if the dog dares to look away or lose interest.

Defense can be used initially, but hopefully you can channel defense into prey. I have seen this personally with my dog Diesel, as he was almost 4 years old when we started with him and would not remain interested in the game unless we made it more real for him. My TD then channeled that into prey and soon did not need to use much defense.

how is it that a dog can transition from defense to prey, is it a confidence thing where after working in defense, they see that they can handle the situation and because of their success it becomes a game, or somehting enjoyable?

The drive the dog is in is based on his reaction to a stimulus. If he perceives a threat he may go into (not getting into terminology and variations) defense, if his prey is stimulated he will be in prey. Dogs can bounce back and forth between drives any number of times in any given training exercise based on what is happening at any given moment, either environmentally or directly from the decoy.

If a dog goes into defense and figures out that there is no reason for him to feel threatened, it is possible that the dog's threshold for going into defense under that level of, or that particular stimulus, is raised. So in that sense, it can be related to confidence.

The misconception is that Prey is a Game or "Play". A dog can be every bit as serious and intense while working in prey. The toughest police dog I know works entirely in prey and fights out of dominance.