Sorry for taking so long to respond. I really do appreciate everyone's suggestions.

Lynne,
Before I bought a dog house for the kennel, I used his crate with a tarp around it. He prefers to lie in the dirt, and doesn’t use the dog house (or the crate when it was in the kennel). Yes, the bark collar works great in his crate. While I can’t say for sure if it’s tight enough, it seems really tight. He has trouble eating with it on, so I do take it off when he eats.

Randy,
The hanging toy sounds like great idea. It’ll take me a bit to rig something up, but I’ll try it. I bought the pup for Schutzhund.

So am I correct in saying there is no “solution” to his tail chasing/barking other than tiring him out with exercise and training?

Your dog needs to walk! You probably have a well bred GSD and they think in circular patterns. He is using a circular pattern that we bred into him to burn the energy he has. Try teaching him a sport that he can use his breeding to accomplish. The way a frisbee moves is a great way to do that which is why so many herding breeds excel at it. The only problem is that tackles only the circle issue. You puppy needs to take long walks under control not crazy and sniffing. Don't make the puppy heel just condition him that pulling isn't acceptable by discouraging pulling and encouraging him if he is lagging or behaving. Walk a pace that makes the dog move at his perfect gate, which will be brisk. Don't stop and let him sniff until you get to a place where you want him to 'go' then start your walk again. I think you will see great improvement. The other thing is because you want to leave him contained whether at work or at home when you aren't there you will have to exercise him first. Remember no less than 30 minutes per walk.

Michele,
I'm by no means an expert on fixation behavior in dogs, all I know is it must be interupted and taken out of the pattern of life for the dog before it becomes a neurosis. Off the top of my head I'd say anything you can come up with thats humane is on the table. Caught and corrected early enough it may take only a span of a few days to break the habit all together. If on the other hand it's allowed to progress to the point of ocd, you may fight with it off and on the dogs entire life. (I think I'm right in this. Someone please let me know otherwise)

Yes, if training and exercise solves the issue, for myself I think that is the best option for the your dog and yourself. Is it the only option? No. As you've found with the bark collar use in the crate. If you're heading into SchH it's time to start thinking about spending time with your dog, because as the dog gets older his need for challenge and exercise is only going to increase from here on out; well to be honest it doesn't matter what you're planning for the dog, his requirements are going to be growing as just as he grows physically. Back to the SchH, do you have a club you attend now? Has the dog been yet? How is he on the rag? What does your training director say about what to do with him enre to training?

Sorry one last question that I'm not clear on. You said you put a toy into his kennel about 2 hours after he was put in. Was he quiet and ok with his tail for that 2 hours or was the toy introducted because he had started on his tail? Or was he awaken or jazzed up when the toy was put in?

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

 Quote: michele hinton

... So am I correct in saying there is no “solution” to his tail chasing/barking other than tiring him out with exercise and training?

 Quote: jillian blesser

Your dog needs to walk!.... You puppy needs to take long walks under control not crazy and sniffing. Don't make the puppy heel just condition him that pulling isn't acceptable by discouraging pulling and encouraging him if he is lagging or behaving. Walk a pace that makes the dog move at his perfect gate, which will be brisk. Don't stop and let him sniff until you get to a place where you want him to 'go' then start your walk again. I think you will see great improvement. The other thing is because you want to leave him contained whether at work or at home when you aren't there you will have to exercise him first. Remember no less than 30 minutes per walk.

 Quote: randy allen

.... it must be interupted and taken out of the pattern of life for the dog before it becomes a neurosis. Off the top of my head I'd say anything you can come up with thats humane is on the table. Caught and corrected early enough it may take only a span of a few days to break the habit all together. If on the other hand it's allowed to progress to the point of ocd, you may fight with it off and on the dogs entire life. (I think I'm right in this. Someone please let me know otherwise) ....

You are 100% correct.


Michele, this pointer from the post above is a fact of life for all dogs, double for high-energy dogs, and triple for yours:

.... because you want to leave him contained whether at work or at home when you aren't there you will have to exercise him first.

You want to leave a tired dog in the crate/kennel -- one who is ready to sleep.

For example, when I worked away from my house, I got up very early every day so that the major "power walk" happened before I left the dogs in the morning.

I did and still do multiple little upbeat training sessions every day, too, to tire out their doggy brains (also very important).

Something to think about is the tail chasing and barking is a symptom not the problem. I have a lot of experience with dogs with similar frustration based problems. Start him on his training waiting will only hurt. Exercise may not be the only solution but it is the best most natural one. If the dog has no left over unhealthy energy then he won't chase his tail and bark. I don't do Schutzhund but I have trained actual bitework personal protection dogs. I know there is a lot of barking in Schutzhund for the bark and hold. Is it really a good idea for a young dog to associate correction with barking at a young age if barking is what you want the dog to do?

Edited by Jillian Blesser (08/02/2008 06:39 PM)
Edit reason: typo

Jillian,
Yes, we do go on walks for 30 mins a night! Yes, he does get excercise before I leave him anywhere! The puppy (his name's Rob, sry I forgot to mention it in the original post) loves to bark. The bark collar has not squelched his desire to bark when the collar is not on.

Edited by (08/02/2008 09:20 PM)
Edit reason: forgot to mention who I was responding to

Randy,
His tail chasing started when he was tethered to me and didn't having anything to do. He would make a few lunges at it. As soon as he started I would either begin moving or tap him on the butt. That was enough to stop him.

No, I'm not a memeber of a club. I was going to join the local club when I went back to college in NY (I live in MD). He goes crazy for a hand towel rag when I use it in drive and focus work... I don't know if thats what you mean when you say "the rag".

I put his treat filled toy in 2 hrs after him because I had to go to work soon, and my experiment was running out of time . He was behaving great, not a peep out of him. I just wanted to see how interested he would be with the toy w/treats. He pushed the ball around the kennel very methodically, eating treats with each nudge (the treats fell out way to easily). I don't know when the ball ran out of treats, but 20 mins after I put it in, he starting barking at his tail.

Hey Michele, just a couple of thoughts. You said in another thread you have the long contacts in, I'm wondering if that effects how the Diaphragm contacts his throat. How about putting one of those cone/collars on him in the kennel to see if that breaks his interest in his tail and also I'm wondering if you are underestimating his desire to interact with you, not just distractions like the toys. You mentioned his elimination diet but when Randy brought up training with the toys I didnt see anything. The fact that he loves carrying around the toy is a good sign to me that you have an opportunity for some good groundwork for future Schutzhund.

 Quote:

You want to leave a tired dog in the crate/kennel -- one who is ready to sleep.

Connie, what is this “ready to sleep” you speak of?

I had the day off, so there was lots of time to play with Rob. We had about 4, 15-30 min fetch sessions outside throughout the day in addition to inside hangout time and play time.

Well, tonight I went on a 45 min "training walk" with lots of turns when he would pull, and upbeat obedience sessions when distractions came along. I walked at a brisk pace too, and Rob did lots of running to catch up when I turned. Then it was 15 of inside romping and fetching with a toy. I had him lie down for 5 mins, but he was so edgy and fidgety that I took him outside and played fetch for 15 mins. He was amped the whole time. Racing to get the toy and running to bring it back. A few times he stopped to sniff. But most of the time he was moving. He still wanted to play when I finally gave up playing and being eaten by mosquitoes. I came inside and put him in a down at my feet. He didn’t lay his head down until an hour after we came inside. Any little movement I make and his head is up and he’s looking at me.

After 1 hour and 15 mins of exercise and obedience training, he’ll rest because I told him to, not b/c he’s tired. He’s not ready to sleep even after an action packed day. Any sympathy…anyone? Is anyone dealing with this sort of monster? I do love him to death though.

"Any sympathy…anyone? Is anyone dealing with this sort of monster?"

41/2 years ago. And I want to do it again.