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Is this a trait you can identify when they are puppies?

I know people who can, but their ability to identify it is accompanied by experience with the last 7 generations of the bloodline, so they know how puppies end up with almost complete accuracy because they can combine what they see in the pups with the knowledge of what they have seen in past litters and how those pups grew up. I went to look at a litter not long ago, of 6 week old puppies. The breeder was able to tell me exactly which pup behaved which way, and what I know of their dogs, I have no doubt that she was entirely accurate in her statements.

I think that with little background info on a litter, it would be impossible to say how a pup will turn out. But with the right information, an educated guess is entirely possible by someone with enough experience to back it up.

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Is this a desirable trait

EDITED: I answered this, read it, and don't think I get my point across the way I would like. Cindy (below) sums it up better. But in addition to the fact that a truly dominant dog is a pain in the ass to live with, there are people who seek these traits out specifically, breed for these traits specifically, and I know, and have been bitten by, a number of police dogs that are on the upper end of extreme. While it really depends on the person you ask, the vast majority of the world should not own a truly dominant dog, whether they want one or not. And for sport, it would be in your best interest to choose a more "compliant" dog (thanks for the word Cindy ) because you will enjoy training the dog more and score better points.

Edited by Mike J Schoonbrood (08/08/2008 11:33 AM)
Edit reason: Changing my answer as to desirability

 Quote: Sarah Morris

For the experienced dog handlers: Is this a desirable trait, one you would want and would look for in a puppy/dog, for sport or protection work?

No. A TRULY dominant dog is a PITA to live with and train.

I get a lot of emails from people wanting to buy a working dog and they are mistakenly led to think a dominant dog is the best choice for police, protection or sport.

I personally like a confident, compliant dog with good prey drive.

 Quote: Sarah Morris

Is this a desirable trait?

How much would you enjoy being married to someone, or friends with someone, that you fought with constantly.
It certainly wouldn't be much fun- and that's essentially what you're getting with this type of dog.

Protection work can be steller. OB work can be World War III.

But hey, I'm sure some people enjoy that.
I'm just not one of 'em. I want to be the center of my dog's world. Not my dog's daily adversary.

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Protection work can be steller. OB work can be World War III.

Even worse: OB during Protection That's where the biggest combat seems to come into place.

Last year I watched a 10 month old Dutchie try to attack his handler because the handler choked him off the bite suit. This was not a quick snap, the dog was angry that life didn't go his way.

Impressive dog none the less.

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

 Quote: Sarah Morris

Is this a desirable trait?

How much would you enjoy being married to someone, or friends with someone, that you fought with constantly.

I didn't enjoy it...which is why I got a divorce. :wink:

But seriously, thanks to you, Mike, and Cindy for answering. Makes me very grateful for my compliant, floppy-eared dog.

Ok, I guess I need to get better at explaining

 Quote: alyssa myracle

However, many dogs feel compelled to take on the role of alpha, when they feel a leadership vacuum in their pack.

THIS is the kind of dog that I have to deal with a lot, and what I was trying to get across in my post.

 Quote: cameron feathers

Any dog can go one way or the other, it's the job of the handler to balance it out. In the middle is the ideal place to be

I should have done better with writing this, rather than generalizing - not my intention.
I see a lot of dogs assuming the role of leader and displaying dominant behaviors. Not because they want to, but because of poor handling.

 Quote: cameron feathers

Most dogs that I see are overly dominant.

I guess it would have been a little better if I had said
"Most dogs I see have overly dominant behaviors because of their situations at home or with how they are handled" The way that I originally wrote it came across differently than I intended. Truth is, I DO work with a lot of dogs with some pretty dominant behaviors. Usually it is seen as no big deal by the owners until something tragic or "unpredictable" happens (I say unpredictable because that is usually the word the owners use to describe the escalating aggression or behavioral issues, not because I see them as unpredictable). A lot of it is the way that they have been raised, handled, etc - not because they were born that way. I have only come across one that seems to want that position, actually. Once proper leadership is established, most every dog I work with settles down into a follower, and has a huge change in behavior. The one that IS truly trying to be in charge IS a big pain, and the owners have a truly hard time staying on top of things with that dog.
Hope I didn't confuse too terribly much, wasn't my intention. I apologize for the generalization.

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I have only come across one that seems to want that position, actually.

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The one that IS truly trying to be in charge IS a big pain, and the owners have a truly hard time staying on top of things with that dog.

One of my favorite examples of a "truly" dominant dog is a dog that would have been shot, by an experienced handler, had someone more experienced not taken over ownership of the dog. The dog would have gladly KILLED his handler over a single prong correction. The dog was uncontrollable and uncorrectable at 14 months old and wouldn't tolerate anyone to stand within 10ft of him because it was "his" space. It took 6 months of training and the dog was still wearing a muzzle for some exercises because pushing the dog too hard would still cause problems.

Does this perhaps sound a tiny little bit like the dog you are referring to that is "truly dominant"??? Or could it be that, perhaps, the leadership is still lacking...

Would the "old" military sentry dogs be considered dominant? Or is that a whole new training/aggressive dog thread?

 Quote: Sarah Morris

I didn't enjoy it...which is why I got a divorce.

At least you rehomed him.....

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

Does this perhaps sound a tiny little bit like the dog you are referring to that is "truly dominant"??? Or could it be that, perhaps, the leadership is still lacking...

That pretty much sums him up. at 4 months he gave his owner 18 stitches in his hand for correcting him. The moment he lays down he immediately claims "his space" and will bite anyone that comes within "his space". He wears a muzzle whenever he is out of his crate due to his issues, and doesn't seem to enjoy interactions at all with anyone. He is staying with me for a few weeks due to a family emergency. He is aloof, and uninterested in interactions or play of any sort. A few weeks ago he stayed with me for a week, and it went very well. He actually seemed like a completely different dog. (He wasn't overly friendly, but he wasn't reacting aggressively either.) I am pretty sure the first time he was here (he had just been neutered - I picked him up from the vets' office) he was feeling a bit "off" due to the surgery, and was still figuring out the world since the surgery, thus the lack of issues with him. This time, however, he immediately claimed "space" and became very obnoxious within minutes. The last time he was with me, after about 5 days he was starting to become more difficult, but was still manageable with structure. Now, he is completely recovered from the surgery, and is right back to "this is MY world" type of behavior. He just turned 7 months old last week.
Not sure if this is a leadership issue, or something else, still. He does better with me than with his owners, and I am able to keep him from getting to the point he gets to with his owners. He will re-direct onto me when I correct him, but he has only actually gotten a hold of me once - the first day he was here. Since then he snarls and spins around when corrected, but he hasn't escalated past that point since the first day.
Actually continue to wonder if he has a screw loose, as well.

 Quote: Michael_Wise

 Quote: Sarah Morris

I didn't enjoy it...which is why I got a divorce.

At least you rehomed him.....