I think it all comes under the umbrella of hunting behaviour as does most of our dogs behaviour. Humans have selected dogs and bred them selectively for certain accentuated traits (or conversly not bred them for certain traits) in certain dogs and that's how we've ended up with "breeds" of dogs. But it all comes down the line to the hunting heritage of the wild canine before humans decided to give them some room at the campfire and make use of their skills. We have been able to accentute and also suppress certain aspects of behaviour but never really eliminate it. Dogs will be dogs and even those little slipper dogs will surpise and disgust their owners with a little bloodthirsty behaviour or a really alarming example of rank or pack drives. I would say maybe they are all aspects of the hunting heritage expressed in different ratios in different types of dogs as a result of selective breeding. Hunt(hunger) drive - find the game, prey drive - chase the game once its's in sight, food drive - eat your catch. Some dogs
are able to make the association of prey(what it wants) to a toy or tug. I think all dog behaviour is hunting or survival behaviour.
I don't know if I've expressed this very well but
I'll post it anyway.

A dog offcourse has to like to play and work for his handler like a GSD normally does.
But also it has to be fun for the dog and there has to be something in it for the dog. Some dogs like different toys and it is up to you to find his favorite toy which he like to play with (mine is crazy of a half chewed up soccer bal). And by playing I don´t just mean throwing and bringing it back and over and over again,NO. While your dog brings it back to you pull and give (play tug) and let him win somethimes. (after all this simulates the pulling in order to eat the prey in their pack, NO ???)

The urge for the dog to play with you has to be greater than wonder off to smell some urine or track of an animal. And that is your challenge and I think this should be possible with a GSD. My dog used to do this at times after she got a hold of a rabbit and that made her eager to track and chase animals, but I corrected her for this. So I personally don´t think it is good to let your dog chase or track animals if you are not using him for hunting dogs ofcourse. Track on human scent instead.

So dogs that lack a lot of pack drive (directed at people) are never at the same level in play drive as dogs that are very handler oriented.

Good brainstorming VanCamp. But I have seen dogs with extreme prey drive that were very indipendant. Otis has had litters that fall into this category. The best dog I ever owned was one.

VanCamp
Your play drive, pack drive, makes a lot of sense. My two BTs are more bonded to one another since they grew up together and they don't have a strong desire to play ball, etc. My JRT grew up with my son and he was always playing ball, frisby, and they chased one another all over. He has a off the wall play drive and is more responsive to learning new games.

Sch3FH2, I would have to agree with you. I'd want the dog to come back TO ME over and over with the ball/tug etc. Even if the dog had a great "working" temperament, what's the point if he doesn't give a da*n about the rest of the "pack" (his handler) unless forced to interact.
For me, IMHO, having a personal dog like that would be akin to having a cat. Their attitude for the most part is "Don't bug me unless I come over and ask you to bug me."

P.S. Please.........I'm not talking about breeders who need and use dogs like this, nor am I going to get in a debate with all of the cat owners out there who say their cats retrieve, etc.
JMHO about what I want, or would look for in a personal dog either companion animal or working/sport. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Caniche - my cats were definately better thatn the siberians at the recall. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

SchH3FH2, thanks for deciphering my lame English, that IS what I meant.

Interesting stuff all around... wanted to hear what others thought of my "theory."

A couple of points:

TIGGY2 wrote, "Some dogs
are able to make the association of prey(what it wants) to a toy or tug." I've been doing more thinking over the past couple of days about this very issue. This seems to be a voluntary mental leap on the part of a dog... I can remember Bernhard Flinks demonstrating how a dog could be very highly motivated by one toy and could care less about another. But somewhere in the dog's mind is a trigger that says, "I will accept this as a substitute prey item." The dog is fully aware that the toy is NOT food, even though many dogs enjoy "pouncing" on the toy and then "killing" it. Which brings me to--

MICKEY-BELGIUM wrote: "Some dogs like different toys and it is up to you to find his favorite toy which he like to play with (mine is crazy of a half chewed up soccer bal)..." Funny you should mention it; yesterday my bitch dug up a toy that used to be her favorite house toy. It's a basketball that she found on the playground a few months ago and immediately punctured with a beautiful full-mounthed grip <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> . She will carry this ball around the house all day--I put it away awhile back because I got tired of her dropping it at my feet when I was making dinner, etc.

I am going to take this ball outside with us next time we go for a training session--I will see if she is more motivated to play with it than with the tennis ball or tug toy. Could be.

MICKEY-BELGIUM wrote: "My dog used to do this at times after she got a hold of a rabbit and that made her eager to track and chase animals, but I corrected her for this. So I personally don´t think it is good to let your dog chase or track animals if you are not using him for hunting dogs ofcourse. Track on human scent instead." Mickey, I wish I could tell you what my dog experienced in her first 14 months of life (before I got her), but all I can tell you is that she went through four handlers--"too much drive". She may well have killed a small animal at some point, but I have no way of knowing. One thing is for sure--she is HIGHLY attracted to the act of hunting.

I have been correcting her for attempting to chase game... I don't want her chasing game.

On the other hand, I worry about overcorrecting her for wanting to keep her nose to the ground. Number one, I don't really know what kind of scent she's following most of the time, and number two, I certainly do not want to inhibit her drive to track.

I am going to start tracking her more often on tracks that I lay myself, though.

Pete Felknor

I thought that I would jump in here on this thread and share with you all an article I wrote several years ago for a Dog Club here in Canada for their National Newsletter. Since then it has been reprinted several times in many different magazines etc.

Check it out, the link I am providing is the first part of two with this one specific on Prey Drive.

http://www.dogresources.com/articles/23.html

Jerry