yes, what i remember of it, it's more if a dog is or is not dominant, or what makes dominance. mike schoonbrood does talk about evaluating litters, i guess what i was really wondering about with my original post, was not to get into what is or is not dominance, but when dogs display it.

basically - what jennifer marshal's post talks about - the 'mid-range' dogs - does this come forward at maturity, or are they also like that from puppyhood? i guess my question comes close to questioning what behaviours really are dominant, but it just popped into my mind - b/c i see/hear so many people talking about dominant puppies or dominant behaviour in puppies, and i would've thought for the most part that just wasn't a puppy issue - so leaving aside whether they're correct about what the behaviour is, i guess i'm wondering if rank drive is acquired mostly at maturity (for the majority of dogs), or if it is really common to see in puppies.

....if i've now possible posted the most confusing post ever. i'm not really wondering about what is or isn't dominance, just when this stuff actually starts to come up. b/c for the most part, i just can't imagine it in a 16 week-old puppy.

Every dog seeks to establish a pack order but not every dog wants to be on the top of that pack order. I would think that applies to pups as well. They want to establish a pack order but don't normally challenge you for a pack leader position until they reach maturity.

thanks cathy. that makes sense to me, that every dog wants to know it's place, but that most dogs won't challenge for leadership until maturity.

....like lions, i think. or chimpanzees. (maybe, since i don't remember, i should shut up about what other animals i'm thinking of....)

i imagine most dogs would require the physical and mental maturity to take that kind of thing on. that's what i thought was normal for most animals/mammals - like teenagers starting to challenge their parents, if i can use an inaccurate comparison.

my dogs definitely have their order, even mr. kenezzer, at his young age. i can actually already see luc following neb, and letting him take the lead role in certain situations, but then, i'm fairly certain luc would submit to a rock, so there we are. i think that particular situation speaks more to luc than it does to any incipient dominance about to pop up from neb. i think neb simply has fit in, is getting fairly consistent signals about where he is in the pack (teagan is the top dog, of course), and operates well accordingly.

I like to think of dominance as a scale like a bar chart. Every dog and human for that matter has a little of it. How much depends on a number of factors the chief of which IMO is self confidence. Every litter has a dominant puppy but that doesn't mean that puppy will be dominant in another litter with a more self confident puppy.

Same thing goes for puppies and humans. Humans are big, tall and imposing to a puppy. They also control all the resources. They have the advantage from the start. If however a human has poor leadership skills (low self confidence around dogs) the puppy may figure out that it can take charge. That human will encounter a dominant dog. Another human however with more experience or just good leadership skills might see a completely different dog.I think this is why there is so much difference in opinion about dominance.

There are a few dogs with the self confidence to be dominant from the start. Usually this will manifest itself as a stubborn puppy. These dogs are very rare. I had one like that. Lady, my GSD was the most stubborn puppy I've ever seen. Usually I do very well with dogs but this one was a challenge from day one.

Now with Molly the situation is completely different. She has always been very submissive. She isn't stubborn at all. In fact she seems to want to please. She is just about a year old now and is beginning to show some of the traits Lady showed from the start. For Molly however it is more like she suddenly is becoming more self confident. This is maturity starting to kick in. It doesn't mean she is dominant just that at maturity she is starting to become self confident enough to show some dominant traits.

In Molly I like what is happening. Call me a masochist if you want but I like that kind of dog. What she was like from the start, I'll never know. She was dumped by unknown persons and I didn't get the chance to see her with her litter. Maybe she was the dominant pup in the litter. Maybe that's why whoever dumped her did so but for me she has always been submissive and is only recently showing this huge surge in self confidence which doesn't bother me at all.

Of course with Molly I'm looking at this in hindsight. Maybe I should have expected this change. She has always been a very steady dog. New experiences that I thought would intimidate her haven't. Possibly a more experienced dog person could have seen that and known she just had some maturing to do.