I think the key you're missing David is the time it takes to develope the dog to the level you're asking about. Yep, those dogs can and do exist. If you're willing to make the commitment to it for the long term (I'm thinking 3 to 4 years average training, then maintaince training there after)(someone correct me if I'm wrong), for myself I like GSD's.

However if you want a natural stay at home, pack oriented, territorial protector; I'd look to perhaps the Kuvasz, the Akita, or maybe a Rhodesian Ridgeback.

If my dog isn't learning, I doing something wrong.
Randy

 Quote: will rambeau

So a calm "PPD trained" dog really doesn't mean anything unless the dog has actually been tested by a PPD decoy that knows what they're doing or they've had a real life encounter with a bad guy in a life threatening situation.

I would agree. The people that I would consider are ones that do realistic training scenarios, similar to what you described.

-Cheers

 Quote: randy allen

I think the key you're missing David is the time it takes to develope the dog to the level you're asking about. Yep, those dogs can and do exist. If you're willing to make the commitment to it for the long term (I'm thinking 3 to 4 years average training, then maintaince training there after)(someone correct me if I'm wrong), for myself I like GSD's.

I think that is more my failure at expressing my expectations. I do not expect a dog to come out like Lassie with a black belt out of the box. I just want a dog that is not going to be hyperactive when it is all said and done. If it is something where we have to deal with then so be it. If I do go this route, it will be with full commitment for the lifetime of the dog and constant training.

Thanks for the links. You have definitely given me something to think about.

-Cheers

 Quote: will rambeau

Any reputable PPD trainer ( and there aren't many competent PPD trainers in this country to begin with ) will have a real problem providing and/or training a dog to your posted requirements ( I don't mean that in a bad way, it's just the truth of the matter )
Plus your dog is going to have to tolerate small children, another strike against owning a serious PPD.

Will (or others), what is "The Answer" when you are interested in getting a PPD to protect your child(ren) a/o wife, or you have a PPD and then have children? I am sure there is no right "Answer" per se, yet I am interested in how people work this out. Are there certain things people look for in this situation?

-Cheers

 Quote: david ruby

 Quote: will rambeau

So a calm "PPD trained" dog really doesn't mean anything unless the dog has actually been tested by a PPD decoy that knows what they're doing or they've had a real life encounter with a bad guy in a life threatening situation.

I would agree. The people that I would consider are ones that do realistic training scenarios, similar to what you described.

-Cheers

David - you're missing my point. *Everybody* does "realistic training scenarios" - *you* ( you and a skilled decoy that the dog has *never* seen, that is ) have to *test* the finished dog to see if it's all show, or if it will actually bite.

 Quote:

He unfortunately snapped at my daughter, so he's at my dad's now, and his desire to play all of the time and get affection from everybody all the time drove my wife nuts.

So... hold on a second. Is this a "I learnt better now, had this happened today, I would know how to deal with it and the dog would still be ours" type situation? Or do you really have no tolerance for a dog that likes attention and likes using his mouth a lot? Are you planning to start with a puppy, a young green dog, or buy fully trained?

 Quote: will rambeau

David - you're missing my point. *Everybody* does "realistic training scenarios" - *you* ( you and a skilled decoy that the dog has *never* seen, that is ) have to *test* the finished dog to see if it's all show, or if it will actually bite.

What I was referring to was realistic car jacking scenarios (or tests) that were done totally seriously, or home invasions, things with hidden sleeves or suits where the dog did not back off, actually bit, and drove the decoy off without any cues that it was a *test* (e.g. gathered crowd at a SchH-style ring w/ announcers & whatnot). I think I got your point just fine.

-Cheers

David,
Here's the first thing that I tell folks who have children if they're looking for a PPD.
This is also from my writings at:
http://www.protectiondogforums.com/forums/index.php




Here's how it usually goes - if you are in *real* danger and are looking for a PPD, you want a dog that first and foremost will *stop* the bad guy, and everything else is a secondary consideration.
I usually only see this type of urgency with "overseas" sales, i.e., the dogs are going to a 2nd or even 3rd world location where they have a serious job to do. I have sold a few of these type dogs in the U.S. ( and own one myself ) but they usually go to the un-named Government agencies.

Most Americans do not want ( nor are they willing to modify their life style to own ) a real PPD. They want a dog that will alarm bark and possibly ( but no real guarantee ) bite the bad guy, but when you get right down to it, they will trade livability for protection - I see it all the time.

A common thing that a vendor sees is a woman that is being stalked and is in a panic and makes a bad decision to buy a PPD - they end up with too much dog and when the situation calms down they want to get rid of the dog, ASAP.

I actually had a potential client ( back when I was a vendor ) that was considering a dog from me, but they ended up buying a dog from someone that I had previously had a good opinion of. Well, naturally the woman changed her mind and wanted to give the dog back to the trainer that she had bought it from - who now would not even return the woman's phone calls ( he's off my list of recommended vendors, needless to say ).
For some reason the woman called me then for advice ( and I wondered to myself..."why call me? You didn't even buy *my* dog!" ) and the only thing I could tell her was to try and sell the dog. I never did end up hearing what happened in the end, but I'm sure it wasn't pretty.
Sadly, that's a far more common occurrence that you'd think.

So I would tell anybody that was thinking of getting a PPD to stop and think *hard* about what adding a defensive dog will do to your lifestyle, and to make damn sure that you are willing to make the life style accommodations to suit getting a PPD.
Or be happy with the decision to get a lesser dog and feel good about it - even a bark alert increases your personal security, just don't play that common game of fooling yourself that the dog will stop the bad guy at the dog - it most likely wont.

Here's a question that I always asked my clients that were looking for a PPD - do you own a gun? If they said no, they didn't need a dog from me and that ended the potential sale. It's all about life style changes and the willingness to make them.

 Quote: david ruby

 Quote: will rambeau

David - you're missing my point. *Everybody* does "realistic training scenarios" - *you* ( you and a skilled decoy that the dog has *never* seen, that is ) have to *test* the finished dog to see if it's all show, or if it will actually bite.

What I was referring to was realistic car jacking scenarios (or tests) that were done totally seriously, or home invasions, things with hidden sleeves or suits where the dog did not back off, actually bit, and drove the decoy off without any cues that it was a *test* (e.g. gathered crowd at a SchH-style ring w/ announcers & whatnot). I think I got your point just fine.

-Cheers

David - the dog in question was *trained* for those scenarios, it knew every step that was going to occur, and it most likely had been trained with those very decoys.
That looks nice and that's what they show people to sell dogs - but it's not a test.

I'm just going to butt out here from here on out, as you're not able to see what I'm saying.
Best of luck!

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

So... hold on a second. Is this a "I learnt better now, had this happened today, I would know how to deal with it and the dog would still be ours" type situation? Or do you really have no tolerance for a dog that likes attention and likes using his mouth a lot? Are you planning to start with a puppy, a young green dog, or buy fully trained?

I like a dog that likes attention. My wife would prefer a more aloof, less needy dog. As for the dog snapping at my daughter, she was literally crawling by him, my wife was leaning over to pick her up as she was reaching to pat him on the head, without actually even touching her, and he blew up at her in an F-off sort of growl/snap. I have no problem with a dog that needs attention, however a dog that is that intolerant of children? Considering the circumstances, no. There are things that might change that outcome, but in this specific instance, no.

As for what dog I would start with . . . It would depend what I found that best fit my needs.

-Cheers