"Defiance" is one of those human terms that don't apply to dogs.
Not comming when called is the results of confusion/poor training. If the dog "refuses", it either doesn't truely understand the command or it locks up/freezes in fear of making a mistake because it's never been given any choices.
I haven't given a physical correction on the training field in about 5 yrs. At home it's usually a vocal correction or grabbing a jowl and getting in their faces, at the worst.
If I get physical with my JRT he'll bite my a$$. One of those "handler aggressive dogs". LOL! LOL! LOL!
Not really! He's just nucking futs in the head!

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As you said Mike, most of these top dogs are trained this way so it's hard to if say positive marker training would be effective on them but what are your opinions?

I will say this much: Gaining respect from a dog is not about how much respect you can beat into the dogs head, but about how you present yourself to the dog as a leader. It is about trust, not about fearing the wrath of the handler.

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I mean do you think a really hard dominant dog will just respect the handler if he's soft and the dog gets away with what ever he pleases. Won't the dog just say stuff you I'm not in the mood for downing or 'aus'ing?

Bob, you've mentioned a number of times, the fact that the hard/dominant ones respond PARTICULARLY well to inductive methods since the method is pro-active on the dog's part; he gets to view himself is the engine behind reward dispensation, and self control is only asked for in tiny increments at time.

It also occurs to me this way...

A soft dog...what's the point of being "hard" on it? It's already soft.

A hard dog...what's the point of butting heads with it? It's already programmed to shrug off corrections anyway, so why would one directly oppose that from the get go?

One dog in particular occurs to me. A hard dog who has been systematically de-sensitized to a prong with ham-handed police training. So much so that two prong collars (that I know of) have been broken on him from major tee-offs (which didn't even solve any problems, to boot). He's essentially uncorrectable at this point.

Seeing that cycle of desensitizing once is enough.

Excellent points Steven!
To often people get a new pup that they just "know" needs to be kept under control.
You can physically control the pup or you can figure out what floats it's boat. High prey drive - make it earn a toy/tug/etc.
Aggressive from the get go. - My JRT! Handler aggressive? Well, physical correction will send him over the top in a heart beat. He's the first dog I ever chose without temperment being top priority. He's a great hunting dog but can't handle/wont tolerate physical pressure.
Hell do anything for a toy or a ball so I've always used those for reward (NOT bribes).
When I had my first grand child (now 10) he turned into a snarling monster when he saw anyone holding her. First response was to beat the crap out of him. NOT! That would have gotten someone bit and create more resentment with the grandaughter. I saftly workd with treating him for neutral or possitive respose to her. Now I have 5 grandkids and he adores them. He's learned they are cookie dispensers. Still they are never left even close to unsupervised with them but their respect is mutual.
Why would we want to get in a fight with a dog that either loves to fight or can't handle the stress of a fight???
Leadership isn't about over powering a dog it's about....well....leadership!
I'll use the wolf pack analogy. Yea I know some think it's bs to compaire it to dogs but there are still many similarities.
The dominant wolf doesn't have to be constantly overpowering the lesser of the pack. It's body language and attitude.
I spent a lot of years with terriers. Training in basic manners, competition obedience, hunting and, yea, even the breed ring.
Physical pressure on most terriers can get you bit, sullen compliance or you crush them. It doesn't mean you've got a handler aggressive dog or a sullen/dour dog, or a soft dog. It may very well mean you just haven take the time to figure out what floats that particular dog's boat.
Not using physical control has nothing to do with being soft on a dog.
Training is more about leadership and understanding the dog. Not about forced compliance.

This thread has triggered some profound posts (IMO).

Steve, Bob, Mike, others, the points about respect and about real leadership are terrific.

Okay, wait, let's back this up. When people speak of a "hard dog" it doesn't mean a "hard headed" or "tough" dog. All it means is a dog that can handle pressure without falling apart. You wouldn't "butt heads" with a hard dog any more than you would a "soft dog" which means a dog that cannot handle corrections.

The advantage of owning a "hard dog" is using pressure, you can teach him "I must, every time". You can't put pressure on a soft dog, consequently you may end up with a "sometimes dog" in other words, you may not get the same level of performance from this dog "every time".

To me, someone who is "hard on a dog" is someone who is unfair to a dog, not someone who uses corrections or force. I guess there are those who will always think any training other than motivational is cruel, so to them, someone who uses corrections or force is "hard on their dog".

What (or who), specifically, are you addressing Susan?

Mike: These are some of the comments I was addressing:

"Lastly my large dog which is a labrador is what I consider a pretty hard dog anything short of a prong and most of the time you'll get a doggie version of the middle finger."

"I mean do you think a really hard dominant dog will just respect the handler if he's soft and the dog gets away with what ever he pleases. Won't the dog just say stuff you I'm not in the mood for downing or 'aus'ing?"

"the fact that the hard/dominant ones respond PARTICULARLY well to inductive methods since the method is pro-active on the dog's part; he gets to view himself is the engine behind reward dispensation, and self control is only asked for in tiny increments at time."

Corrections have to be fair. Any dog can be driven nuts to the point of coming back up the leash or shutting down if they are nagged long enough or beaten hard enough. A dog can be very handler sensitive, yet still very hard if he can handle pressure. Handlers who deliver ineffective, sporadic or badly timed corrections are unfair and therefore very hard on dogs.
These are the handlers who's dogs cower or cut and run because they do not understand the correction.

I do not consider the handler who's corrections are well timed and effective (the first time) to be hard on dogs.

Sorry I see what you mean. I am firm and do not tolerate any nonsense from my dogs, but when they do something wrong, they come to me, not crawling or groveling. I am not a professional trainer, so I was just sharing my experience. My dogs know when I am upset with them. I am the total opposite of when I am overjoyed with their obedience. My face has a mad stern look, do they still try and get away with things, sometimes, but I take the time to go and get them and reinforce what I asked them to do. Of course they are early in thier training.

It's really easy being one of my dogs. I show them how i want them to do stuff and consistantly keep showing them till they get it, some take longer then others, lol. They get it sooner or later though. If one of them doesn't listen it's my fault, not the dogs.