Quote: debbie bruce

 Quote: sherry lester

I considered cooking for him, if , as she claims he cannot process the raw--but that would change the food & he'd have to have different digestive enzymes for that-do you think?

He would have to have MORE enzymes to digest the raw as cooking destroys the enzymes that are already there, so his body would have to work harder to get the nutrition he needs.
It sounds like you are taking wonderful care of your dog.

I should have said he "He would have to have MORE enzymes to digest the cooked....

right-
I'm trying figure out how to lower the protein in a raw diet- that was the reason she wanted me to use the kd-because of renal compromise & high bilirubin.
As of now, we're just going along as usual until or unless there is a more reasonable solution than kd.
I know things can happen fast,but, I don't want to create an environment of anxiety for either of us-or my other dog-or the bird-or.........never mind

You have received some good answers, IMHO.

I just want to be clear before I post some diet links and info (fresh food, I mean, specifically for kidney failure or pancreatitis) for you: Which is the more pressing issue? Pancreatitis or kidney failure?

Are we talking about acute pancreatitis? Did pancreatitis symptoms trigger the blood work?

How was the pancreatitis diagnosed?

Has he eaten raw all his life?

I don't have anything to add, just curious.

Glad that you are sticking to your guns.

Ditto what Connie said about the advice you have already gotten. Just wanted to give my support, too.:smile:

The pancreatitis & other issues were diagnosed from a blood work up in preparation for removal of a small tag in the corner of his eye.It has been irritating his eye-checked his eye for corneal abrasion-negative, but thought he would be more comfortable without it.I'm just using an antibiotic ointment for now.
I have the 2 pages of blood work in front of me- but, I don't really know how to interpret all the numbers.The Dr.'s notes just say-renal compromise-pancreatitis- anemia-non-regenerative----recommend science diet-kd (in big letters.)so I don't know which is top priority.
She did give him a hands on physical prior to taking his blood & didn't observe anything amiss.
He is not showing any external signs of illness or discomfort.His coat is jet black & shiny- with grey only on part of his face.
I know the blood work is the reality & the internal clock can't be turned back, but as long as he's living his life as usual & enjoying it, I'm going to continue to try to keep him as healthy as possible.
He has been on raw totally for a long time, now, but I've gotten a lot more information reading this board. I posted a while ago when I started my young dog on raw-maybe last year.

KD is low in phosphorus & sodium to help kidney function--in going over this report- those 2 things are normal- as is ---potassium-calcium-magnesium-triglyceride- cholesterol--I won't put everything........the blood count normal-but high platelet& monocytes.
That's some of it...

Hey Sherry, I would consider seeing a different vet. I had to feed science diet u/d this summer and it was like chemo therapy. My dog is only 5 so he's bouncing back but with an 18yr old,, I would worry. Take a look at the list of Holistic vets here and find one who also practices nutrition and I bet the current thinking on this is not feeding science diet.

 Quote: sherry lester

I have the 2 pages of blood work in front of me- but, I don't really know how to interpret all the numbers.The Dr.'s notes just say-renal compromise-pancreatitis- anemia-non-regenerative----

I would call and say that I want the vet to call back, and then say "I'm sorry; I am not great at reading the results, and I need to know for my own understanding: Which result indicated pancreatitis, and which of the two -- pancreatitis and kidney disease -- is the more pressing?" and I would stay on the phone until I was clear.


http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/pancreatitis/
QUOTE: To reduce the work load on the pancreas following an attack of pancreatitis, a low fat diet is recommended, preferably spread over several small meals a day. Smaller, more frequent meals help glucose levels to remain more stable and reduce the load of foods at one serving to decrease the enzyme activity of the pancreas. END

Two simple recipes follow.

And kidney failure:

http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html#diet
QUOTE: In general, vegetable oils are not recommended as a source of fat. They are high in omega-6 essential fatty acids, which are inflammatory, and are not a good source of nutrition for dogs. Omega-6 fatty acids have been found to be harmful to dogs with kidney disease. Instead of vegetables ols, use Fish Oil, such as Salmon Oil or EPA oil (NOT cod liver oil). While Flax seed oil has more omega-3 fatty acids than most plant oils, it is also high in omega-6 and so is not recommended. END

also (same site):

QUOTE: If your dog is not uremic, then the consensus seems to be to feed a moderate amount of very high quality protein. Eggs have the highest quality protein (although egg yolks are high in phosphorus), followed by raw meat, then lightly cooked meat, then well cooked meat. The lowest quality protein comes from processed meat, as is found in commercial dog foods, and from grains.

The site at http://www.vetinfo4dogs.com/dogdiet.html says "High quality proteins are ones that closely match the proper mix of amino acids the body needs. Ideally, there would be exactly the right number of every amino acid and no excess of protein material, making both the liver and the kidneys happy. In general, animal source proteins, such as meat, milk and eggs are higher quality than plant source proteins. This is because the animal that produced these items already made the proper proteins and so they are already in the proper mix. That is why cottage cheese is considered to be a higher quality protein source then soy, for instance." Note that some amino acids, such as taurine, are sensitive to heat, which is one of the reasons why raw meat is considered higher quality than cooked meat.

When developing a diet for your dog with kidney failure, the goal is to feed moderate to high fat, moderate amounts of high quality protein, low phosphorus, and low phosphorus carbohydrates to fill in. END QUOTE



http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/kidney-diet/
QUOTE: In two studies, one from 2000 and the other from 1998, dogs with induced kidney disease showed improvement when they were fed omega-3-rich fish oil supplements, compared to omega-6-rich safflower oil supplements. Results from this model of renal insufficiency in dogs suggest a beneficial effect of fish oil in protecting the kidney, whereas safflower oil hastened the decline of kidney function. END

(BTW, Mary Strauss and Lew Olson are the two best canine nutrition authorities I have found on the web. JMO.)

And I will add that I agree with Steve Strom about a different vet's opinion.

The supplements & diet he's on seem to be in line with this information from these links. The one thing I'm not sure of is fat- The last couple of years I take off chicken skin-use lean cuts of red meat & pork & trim all fat.I did wonder if it was enough fat for my younger dog, but , their coats & skin look great.
If anyone sees anything -(I posted the diet & supplements on earlier post)- to be improved on, by all means chime in.
The only difference in my young dogs diet- is that she has pumpkin & plain yogurt w/ a powdered supplement- that my old boy won't touch.oh- & leg quarters.
I compared the blood work of both dogs now--so many numbers are nearly identical-but-different lab- different vet--the reference range is different- so the same numbers that are considered normal on the young dog- are not acceptable range on the seniors' .
Steve- what do you mean about the ud for your dog? Was it beneficial, a cure-all? thanks for the advice & details.
I'm looking for a holistic vet-it won't be either of the 2 I have now.My other dog's vet said to put her on Royal Canin, because her coat has now become a dark espresso w/chestnut, having changed from her puppy coat of ebony.She is a lab mx.- could be dobie or chocolate lab.The vet said it was due to lack of amino acids- although there's no indication of that in her bloodwork.
Thanks-Connie & everyone- I'm going to those sites now- & doing more research --& calling these vets.

No, not a cure all more like poison. My dog went from 100Lbs to 89 but he's in his prime right now so he's recovering quickly. At 18 this may be harder on him then his medical condition.U/D is different then K/D I know and fed for a different reason but It's still in my opinion crap and based on 1930's thinking. Like you I have gone to the same vet for years and have always been happy with him but he's the first to tell you his knowledge of nutrition depends on what the bag says. So 45 days of putting that crap in my dog was all I could stand and when the specialist he confered with said feed him K/D I went elsewhere.