Dee enjoyed your post. You wrote in part:
"I highly agree that breeders or owners of high lines who send their dogs off for training and titling receive back dogs that are titled but truly lack training. More importantly they lack the foundation necessary for the work".

They also lack breeding in that they were selected first because they mirrored the standard not because they excelled in their work. It's hard enough to get a working GSD from a working breeding without watering down necessary drives that are not needed in the show ring.

Dee wrote in part:
Overall, I find that high lines that are handler, owned and trained, where the training is delivered at a working dog club tend to have stronger foundation, better bite behavior and better temperament.

That may be true but I'm sure you'd agree the bar is pretty low. Regards Norman

Norman,

Norman wrote:
"That may be true but I'm sure you'd agree the bar is pretty low."

Oh yes! I completely agree that the bar is low! Much lower than it should be. However, we need to give credit where credit is due. There are breeders out here who ARE making efforts to breed only to the dogs that do work. Unfortunately, we have a public who reads or hears the hype of such and such a dog being the USA Sieger, German Sieger or NASS Sieger, and in their inexperience they think that is what the GSD is. Gosh, that makes me cringe!and I own show lines! LOL

I have stated this on other forums before and I think it bears repeating. Instead of GSD people saying there aren't any show line dogs who actually can work, or there aren't any breeders producing dogs that can work, we need to start pointing those dogs/breeders out that are working or producing, to people who ask.

I think to some degree mindset is changing in regard to the show line dog. There are enough black and red cookie cutter type dogs out there that are exactly the same, and the ones who are stepping out of that mold need encouragement. Afterall, those of us who are GSD owners should want to support those who are making a change, even if the steps for change are small ones right now.

You know Alyssa, I don't remember ever seeing a sable, or even knowing what sable is, before I started doing my research before we bought Hans. I had a GSD when I was a child, a black and tan, and that was what a GSD was in my mind.

After doing my research, I decided I wanted a dog out of working lines, because I believe they are, generally speaking, more likely to be healthy, and I wanted a GSD with the best chance possible of having good hips. So I compromised on looks.

I still think the black and tan GSD's are prettier. But, everyone who meets Hans tells me he is a beautiful dog. Everyone. Many of those people have also never seen a sable GSD, they ask what breed he is, or if he is a mix.

Since I've had Hans, I see sable GSDs every time I turn on the TV. Or look into the back seat of one of the local K-9 police cars.

Rich I think Alyssa may have gotten confused as her dog is indeed a dark sable. Black and Tan is the normal show line appearance.

I'll throw my 2 cents worth in, which given my limited experience, may not be worth as much as two cents but it's mine nonetheless :-)

I absolutely HATE showlines!!! I had a showline Shepherd who caused me great pain for a number of reasons related to poor breeding, genetics, nerve and character. I have seen and worked showline Shepherds who are simply not worth the time or effort and it is THESE dogs that give the Shepherd a bad name.

If the general public had the knowledge of the differences in these two types of dog, and were allowed to choose, I believe they would choose the working line GSD for it's courage, strength, willingness to work and attitude.

Showline dogs are a poor cousin at best and bear little resemblance to the Shepherd Max Von Stephanitz spent so much time and effort cultivating. He would be ashamed of what the show ring has done to his creation.

I have a working line GSD now and the difference is ASTOUNDING!!

In my opinion, people who breed these fine dogs for looks need to be removed from breeding registries and BANNED from breeding animals!

Do you get bad working line dogs as well? Of course! but the percentages are much less and if the breeder is any good at what they do they will not breed that combination again.

John

OK having posted what I did about showlines I have to add something after watching the video of Dee's dog :-)

I thought this was a good example of protection work and a really nice attitude from the dog. However it would NOT have been a 97 point showing under our judges. But it was still a performance worth scoring in the 90's!

I thought the dog had a bit of help from the decoy, particularly in the re-attack during the back transport. But the overriding thing helping the dog was the handling from Dee, Very nice indeed, and this is sometimes what makes the difference in a trial.

J

What I was getting at is, if you want a solid working dog, that is also good lookin', get a sable.

I think sables are the pinnacle of good lookin'.
The only advantage to showline GSDs is the looks, and since I don't think Black & Tans are particularly good looking, I hate the exagerated sloping showline backs, narrow faces and the like... well, showlines aren't even pretty to me.

Working ability trumps looks all the time- and while some showlines may be able to work... the percentage of dogs with proper GSD structure, temperment and working ability in "working lines" is far superior to the percentage that you will find is showlines.

Breeding a dog for looks, is stupid. They're working partners, NOT lawn ornaments.

My 2 cents worth as an experienced dog-person but a newbie to GSDs specifically:
There ARE some nice showline dogs that have nice balanced drives and are sensible, willing, smart, cooperative and capable---i have one. he happens to be gorgeous too, but that is besides the point of all his other attributes, that is just the cherry on top. For some people's lifestyles, goals and requirements, good, well-bred showline dogs work out fine.
when any breeder of any breed concentrates on ONE trait, most of the rest ends up in the shitter. this is true for horses, cats AND dogs. AKC shepherd breeders only care about conformation. for the most part (speaking in generalities) their brains went down the toilet as well as termperment, soundness and also the insanity of all that rear over-angulation. breeders of miniature horses focused ONLY on small and they are generally riddled with health issues b/c the breeders were in an all-fired hurry to get themn bred down to TINY (tiny sold). but to group ALL showline dogs and ALL showline breeders together as being not good is unfair. each of us has a slightly diff measuring stick than the next person. what i would find impossible to live with (in the house as a family member) would be fine with another person. a person has to do a BOATLOAD of homewk before choosing a breeder---regardless of which type they want. maybe a GOOD showline breeder is harder to find than a GOOD working line breeder(?), but again, it depends what one's goals are. there are lousy working line breeders too, right? the overall dog that has soundness of mind, body and temperment and may or may not be pretty but physically complies with the breed standard, is trainable and willing---should be the goal, no matter which line one is breeding.
JMO. (this argument rages on in Australian shepherds as well)
jen

I will let Captain Max von Stephanitz the founder of the GSD speak for me when he demanded this as a template for his breed, "Beauty Is In The Work". It might be of interest to know that, at one time, the Malinois and the GSD looked very much alike and came from the basic breed stock and had similar duties. The Malinois unlike the GSD has not changed in type because conformation is not part of identifying their breed stock, strenuous testing is. On the other hand schutzhund has weakened its test in order to accommodate its show community. They have taken away the vertical wall from the obedience routine and put in its place the A-Frame. There is no longer gun shots for the BH. They have taken away the attack on the handler in Schutzhund one and every time they weaken the test they weaken the breed. It also might be of interest that for the Malinois, who for the most part do not x-ray their dogs and HD is not a big problem but it still is for the GSD that has had mandatory hip x-rays for forty years. Do you believe that the change in conformation might have something to do with it.

IMO you can't serve two masters so collectively there will seldom be show GSD's dogs that can match the working line GSD in temperament and character, or for that matter that is true for any working breed. Why? Because every breeder has to, at one time or another, make a choice does he or she breed a better looking dog that is not as strong or a better working dog that is not as beautiful. The answer to that question defines the goal of a breeder. In order to set type or get closer to a standard, the goal for the preponderance of the show community, one must choose dogs that emulate that standard over others or else they won't win at the shows, there goal. If that is true in the show world it is also true in the working world but breed stock is chosen for different reasons, i.e., stronger in character and temperament, biddable with correct movement and agility (working conformation). The most important thing for a show breeder is seldom even mentioned in a working breeding. That's why IMO you can't breed for both. Because when you breed a dog that breeding becomes a part of all behind those dogs, sort of like when you select a partner (g). Regards Norman

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

I think sables are the pinnacle of good lookin'.

I agree 100%. I think sables are the most beautiful GSDs. I guess, as they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, because I sure don't think show lines are better looking than working line sables<g>. And that goes quadruple for American show lines, which to me, look like cripples.

leih

Oh Well Alyssa....Seems I'm the one who got confused

I too, much prefer the look of working dogs to show dogs, particularly Dark Sables

I think the defining thing for me, regardless of how well the dog works (meaning there are different levels of working dogs ability), is the ability of working lines to "push through" the stress barrier, even if they don't like what they are being asked to do, rather than shutting down and not being able to do what they are asked, they have that extra heart that is just not there in 98% of showlines.

Again my experience is limited but this is what I have seen and had personal experience of.

J