The last ob classes I took were very small, max of 5 dogs at a small private training facility. It worked extremely well. I took my last rescue there, he had been an outdoor kennel dog.
I know if that would have still been too much stimulation for him, she would have set something up for him as an individual lesson, and had one of her calm dogs out to down on the floor while we worked from a distance, and eventually close the gap.

In the OB class I took, the instructors were very helpful with collar choice. i.e. By the third week, Ginger was on a Prong because they could tell she/ I needed her to wear one. I doubt they'd have a problem with a dog wearing a muzzle because they would want to protect themselves as well as other dogs.

Also, they did not want the dogs interacting with one-another. We were there to learn how to train our dogs, not let them be friends with other dogs. In fact, it was frowned upon to let the dog's "wander" while we were sitting listening. They were to sit in front of us and not move. Otherwise, they were to be corrected.

Perhaps you could find a similar class?

Of course if that Aussie in our class was constantly going after other dogs, they might have asked her to take private classes.

One last relevant note, that Aussie NEVER acted up while the instructor was holding her.... ok, it did once... once. After the instructor made it perfectly clear that his actions were inappropriate, the dog sat by her side for as long as she held the leash.....

Once she gave the leash back to the owner, the dog went off again.

Well, like I said, I'm pretty happy with the control I have over Teagan - we are moving away from the prong, so there has been some regression, but we're moving back forward again. For the most part, if we see another dog, she'll keep heeling. Or sit quietly if that's what I ask her to do. (Last week, we did see 4 dogs in 5 minutes, the last 3 being small dogs, and by the last dog, she did break her heel and get overly 'excited', but I was able to rein her in and continue walking. That sort of thing wouldn't have happened at all if she'd been in the prong, but I am working on having her off the prong).

The thing I really want to be able to do - while I have control over her and she will do what I want her to do, I can feel her vibrating while sitting, for instance.

I'm not sure I'd trust her off-leash but she's not allowed off-leash, so it's kind of a moot point. B/c I'm sure she has multiple attacks under her belt, and b/c I know she enjoys attacking, since I can tell she still wants to attack, but refrains from doing so b/c I ask her not to, I just think it's a bad idea.

What I want to be able to do is eliminate the repressed aggression....what causes her to vibrate, even as she's obeying me. I guess I want to get at the root of aggression, to see if it's possible to stop her from having any aggression (I'm not getting the feeling that most people here think that's possible though).

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

And, maybe it's stupid, but I guess....how do people make formerly aggressive dogs reliable if they don't 'cure' them?

Once your dog has attacked another dog, you can never be 100% sure of your dog around other dogs, period.

So, in addition to training, desensitization and counter conditioning, you have to rely on management and supervision. Forever, for the life of the dog.

With enough work, over time, your dog may reach the point where she's not vibrating after encountering the third dog on your walks...or not. You have to make sure she knows you will protect her and be between her and any other dog. (And, yes, I know you don't belive her aggression is fear based, and that's fine, but the deal still has to be you deal with other dogs, she listens to you.)

I think you mentioned her being described as sharp earlier in this thread...she may have some nerve issues...but bottom line, it doesn't really matter. You will always have to manage her around other dogs. For you to believe you can find some cure for this is unrealistic. It also sets you up for disappointment, in the sense that you are defining an unrealistic goal against which you will then measure yourself, and since you can't reach it, you will feel guilty, bad, something negative towards yourself.

You can most likely achieve improvements in her behavior around other dogs with practice and work, and part of that is finding safe dogs around whom you can work with her (whether that's other dogs in a fenced area with you on the outside, or you in a class with a good trainer and other dogs who are under control), but you will never get away from the management and supervision aspects of this. The more you work with her, the better she will most likely be, but cured? Not gonna happen.

leih

oh, i might have not made clear, but i don't ever expect to stop managing her. the risk is simply not worth it.

what i do want is for her to not have such a strong desire to attack or to not have suppressed aggression. if that makes sense. she'll vibrate on the first dog.

the few dogs that have directly approached her, i have always gotten in between them and dealt with them, no worries there. the majority of dogs will not directly approach her, and with very few exceptions, if there is eye contact between the dogs (again, she does not vocalize), my experience is the other dogs back down (sit down, shut up) or move away, even if they were not on route to directly come into contact with her. i am however pretty careful now not to allow situations where we might be too close to other dogs.

and in terms of possible fear aggression - i've looked, and looked, for signs that is what is happening - and i've read, and read, and i just don't see it. neither did either professional i consulted. besides, she enjoyed attacking that small dog - she was having the time of her life, having fun, while i may not be the most experienced dog person here, i'm as sure of that as i am that my name is jennifer mullen i'd stake my life on it. i've spent a looong time observing her behaviour and trying to understand her triggers now. enjoying the attack seems contrary to everything i've ever read on fear aggression (or seen in luc). does her enjoying that make her some kind of doggy psycho?

i just want to be able to 'get rid' on a basic level her aggression b/c i honestly don't think it's healthy.

Some fear driven biters can learn to appear to behave like dominant dogs. This type of dog has learned through experience how to remove the threat by attacking first. They seem dominant, but the underlying problem is still fear generated. These are often the aggressive bullies of the dog world. A good trainer should be able to identify the subtleties of thier behavior.

When your dog growls at or attacks other dogs that it sees as a threat and the other dog backs off, your dog interprets this as a success and the aggressive behavior is reinforced. Most fear aggressive dogs are worse in restricted places and on leads.This is because your dog senses that there is no escape and this makes him feel more threatened.

Could be dominance aggression. Is the dog aggressive to the opposite sex? Dominance aggression is usually a strong inherited drive to be higher ranking and the boss.

teagan does not growl at other dogs. she does not vocalize at all unless she is stopped from attacking. she does not hackle, she will stare at other dogs, but in no other way does she posture.

i know that about fear aggression, which is why i have looked so closely for it, and i've never been able to see it. i've had two very experienced dog trainers help me with her, and neither felt she had fear issues. can i say 100% she's not fear aggressive? no, but i've never found it to be a good match to her behaviour, even taking into account the 'offence is the best defence'.

teagan is actually less aggressive when muzzled. it has a calming affect on her. which again, i don't think is consistent with fear aggression.

and as i said - i've never heard of a fearful dog enjoying attacking. she had fun, believe me.

teagan is the top ranking dog in the house, and i had to work to establish myself with her (i was used to luc, so easy), she's not a dog i find you can just let things go with, in terms of leadership. i'm not sure she'd been considered truly dominant, i know that can be overly diagnosed (so to speak) so i'm hesitant to ascribe that to her.

I'm not experienced in this but I have seen in ob classes some serious cases of agression and unfortuntaley for them the "group work" made the problem worse...

I think group classes are ok for dogs that are not aggressive in anyway and you are going there to proof as part of your distration phase of training. If you have a dog that is aggressive I'd say don't do it. I took my youngest thru a group class (hes fear aggressive) and it was a disaster, wont do that again but then again the class was about 20 plus dogs in a little gymnasium and the instructor was not good....I suppose if it was a really good instructor/trainer and classes were small and there was enough room to keep your dog at a far enough distance to work her properly then maybe try it.
I think i'm starting to ramble.....