@ all who have taken the time to reply- thank you!

i have seen many vids here, and im sure at more than one time i have seen 'marker' ones. but i guess this is what confuses me-i had the impression that marker was the sound that the trainer made when the dog behaved correctly, and the food was the reward. which is why i have stayed away from the whole 'click and treat' deal- aside from not having enough hands to hold harness/leash/cricket/treat, and respond fast enough to make the connection in the dog's mind with the c&t.

and yes, you guys are right in saying he isnt enjoying any of his training. that is why i am so frustrated...i cant understand why/what i am doing wrong, after all these years of training happy, successful dogs. our last dogs have been rough collies from breed rescues, trained to help my autistic son.( my first collie was intended for him, but the dog bonded to me instead, and the only time i have ever had trouble with him was when my balance disabilty got worse, and i needed him to lean more into the harness. that was when he 'said' that he was a Psych SD, and not a mobility SD, and quit working for a time.)

anyway, i dont know how to get my present dog to be happy about much of anything. friends have told me to send him back to the breeder,because no matter what i've done, he doesnt seem happy-paces back and forth in the house, doesnt want to spend time with any of us...all this on top of the training problems. friends have told me to try again, with a GSD, which i know best of all breeds. but though i know them so well, i cant bear having to put them to sleep every few years- they seem to all get an allergy to fleas that seems to be resistant to all the treatments we have tried. i just had to put to sleep my last GSD last October, after trying for 2 years to heal her allergy, and it hurts so much still. and i dont want to lose this dog....but i cant bear to see him pacing, not able to train him where he is happy and glad to be with me. he only sees me as a source of snacks..

never, in all the years of joy of training dogs, with both dog and i loving every minute of it, i have failed so miserably, and i cant understand why.

Hi Gail,
That is the beauty of marker training. You use your voice for the mark so you do not need to involve your hands in the training process, other than to reach into a treat bag and hand out the reward.
If your dog is food motivated, he should be very easy to train.

I want to comment briefly on the pacing though. IMO, this is a sign of boredom and lack of exercise. Are you able to exercise him sufficiently?

The purpose of the marker is to give the dog a clear sign that the behavior he did immediately preceding the marker is what you are looking for. If this dog seems confused by what you are doing, marker training will help clear this up.

The first step is to 'load' the marker. That means that you will be associating a word (many here use the word 'Yes') with a food reward. The way that you do this is to say your maker word (Yes!) and hand the dog a treat. No behavior is expected or needed in this first step. Do this a bunch of times, and use really good treats, like bits of chicken breasts or other real food. The way you should do this is: 'Yes', 2 second pause, then hand the dog a treat. There needs to be a very brief time between the word and the reward, and no hand movement during that brief time.
You will know that your dog understands that 'yes!' means a reward is coming when you say 'yes!' when he's not looking, and his head swivels around looking for the reward.

This is fun to do and your dog will very likely pick it up quickly.

PS, there will be a point when you can phase out food rewards, but now is not it. You have been bribing your dog, not rewarding him, and there is a huge difference in that...

PS, you cannot begin training until this step is completed!

 Quote: Lynne Barrows

PS, you cannot begin training until this step is completed!

And in fact, all training is far more difficult with a dog who has frustrated, unrelieved energy.

QUOTE:
I want to comment briefly on the pacing though. IMO, this is a sign of boredom and lack of exercise. Are you able to exercise him sufficiently?

i have seen many vids here, and im sure at more than one time i have seen 'marker' ones.

Would you like some links? There is so much info here!


never, in all the years of joy of training dogs, with both dog and i loving every minute of it, i have failed so miserably, and i cant understand why.

I see this as counterproductive guilt and self-berating. JMO!

I think that the bonding of marker training will amaze you, and I think that the brain-work for the dog will un-bore him. (But I still see pacing as an exercise red flag. )

 Quote: Lynne Barrows

The purpose of the marker is to give the dog a clear sign that the behavior he did immediately preceding the marker is what you are looking for. If this dog seems confused by what you are doing, marker training will help clear this up.

The first step is to 'load' the marker. That means that you will be associating a word (many here use the word 'Yes') with a food reward. The way that you do this is to say your maker word (Yes!) and hand the dog a treat. No behavior is expected or needed in this first step. Do this a bunch of times, and use really good treats, like bits of chicken breasts or other real food. The way you should do this is: 'Yes', 2 second pause, then hand the dog a treat. There needs to be a very brief time between the word and the reward, and no hand movement during that brief time.
You will know that your dog understands that 'yes!' means a reward is coming when you say 'yes!' when he's not looking, and his head swivels around looking for the reward.

This is fun to do and your dog will very likely pick it up quickly.

PS, there will be a point when you can phase out food rewards, but now is not it. You have been bribing your dog, not rewarding him, and there is a huge difference in that...

Here is a perfect first step!

thats part of the problem...i cant exercise him as much as im sure he would like. he has shown no interest in any of the toys we have gotten, and my energy level is very low. i would use my scooter, that my healthcare giver got for me, but i have no way to get it out of the house, without the help of a strong person to set up a ramp, drive it down, then reverse the process when i come back. plus, my 19 year old son, who was going to help me with training, got a job last year...i had been hoping to get a guide dog at that time- is no longer around to keep me safe crossing streets (one thing i was going to train was for guide tasks, as i have done with my last dogs). so letting the dogs out in our fenced yard, chasing each other around and playing, has done well for years. we cant afford to build a ramp that would be permanent, letting me out when i want to, but best i could do would be to go around half the block...many streets in our small town have no sidewalks, and with the streets steeply crowned, i have to drive the scooter almost in the middle of the street.....not good with my disabilities. when i have tried to train him, i have one or both hands full of crutches if i am on my feet, or i try to do it sitting in a chair or couch. but in both situations, he edges away, clearly unhappy with the situation. i had even waited till i knew he was ok, with my forearm crutches, and not spooked with them, so i know thats not a factor.

i think i have been doing, more or less, what is described as the preloading and the rest, but i must have done it wrong, or he would be responding better..

Much training can be done sitting.

That doesn't mean the dog doesn't need exercise. Are you planning on a dog-walker? And/or maybe retrieve in the yard with a ball-launcher? Or is your son able to commit to an hour or two every day? (I actually don't consider yard-frolicking to "count" on the structured exercise list.)

Dogs often don't like toys that aren't attached to a human who is involved in the game. No problem. But he needs (not "likes," but needs) exercise. (Pacing is a pretty big warning, I think.)

Charging the marker is simple, but not really a "more or less" thing. The dog needs to perceive a black-and-white fact: the marker is a good thing for him.

If you tell us exactly what you have been doing, that'll help.


We can help you start over with this dog, if you want to do that. I know you posted about phasing out food rewards, but I think it's clear that this isn't really the issue at this point.

Food rewards can indeed be almost phased out (made random and easy), but I think that we are reading that the dog has been lured and/or bribed, not rewarded, and that a total re-start is in order. This can be done. I don't know if you have the desire or even the energy to do it, though. Only you know that.

I agree 100% on "a total restart is in order".
The comment about food in the show ring is a dead giveaway as to bribing.
When I was doing the show dog thing I only ran across one judge that didn't allow "baiting" in the breed ring so "bribing" in the breed ring is a natural thing that needs to be gotten rid of here.
Even for the show ring don't you think it will present better to the judge if the handler is standing there with his/her hands at his/her side and the dog presenting a perfect picture to the judge?!
Marker training can give that to you for the breed ring as well as obedience outside.

yes, i can see all this. when i trained my last SD, i was 8-9years younger, with disabilities that were not as bad as they are now, with a liver issue recently added to the list, which may account for my strength/stamina being so much less than even 3 years ago. when i was out with this dog, Todd, last Saturday, i all i did was cross a street, walk past two stores and then sit in the shoe store while my son took care of his shopping. it had been a good thing the street had kind of a island marker in the middle, because i was already out of breath by then. when Anja, my last SD, was helping me, she was a little tow truck, which **really** helped.

with this dog, Todd, well, hes pretty much still a tabula raza....no commands at all. he has been learning to jump up on the bed with me, but its for snacks, unlike our other collies who come up to cuddle when im depressed. (i chose a collie this time around, because i need the help with depression more than i did when i had Anja.

i would appreciate help in figuring how to set up training him, but keeping in mind my limitations of being pretty much housebound (a friend is supposed to be building me a ramp, but have had that told me many times before...so its a wait and see) i cant count on help with him from family, despite my kids all being teens. my meds, though i take them at night, often keep me asleep till 1-3 the next afternoon and kind of foggy even then. if i can get the ramp, i could likely be able to catch Todd's attention and interest in training more then, but i dont know when/if the ramp is a sure thing. it will be when i see it. another problem is my vision and hearing-i almost, but not quite qualify as legally blind- so everything is blurry when i go out and 2 dimensional, so crossing streets is scary for me...i had hoped to have my son's help in watching out for me till i had that task trained. now he works full time, and i have to find a way to do that from a scooter. only thing i can think of is to somehow mount a white cane with one of those wheel tips, in a place i can feel it.

...im blathering. i can come up with plans, but when the dog isnt interested/excited with just being with me, doing what ever i come up with as a neat new game, im lost.none of my GSDs or other collies were like this