And therein lies a major problem with villifying breeds.

It only attracts the wrong sort of people to own that breed. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, of sorts.

I am conflicted about pits and their role in US society. Pits are for the most part cool dogs. I have seen pits done exceptionally well. Models of their breed and proper dog ownership, and do well by their owners.

I have also lived in an area where pits were done very very horribly. When I lived in Colorado springs on the corner of Airport and Academy there was a gas station where three little kids every Saturday would sell pit pups out of the back of their dad's pickup for $25 or two cases of corona. I wish now I had taken a picture to summarize my dispair over this. There was the same situation at the fleamarket also on airport where it was $35 for most pits and $50 for blue nose pits. I one day driving home had to pull over to shoot two pits who were attacking a 10 year old across the street from her school. The owners had used a garbage pail lid to secure a hole in the base of their fence and left the dogs out in the yard. I still think to my relief how much worse that could have been if their was not a bank for me to shoot into and other kids were there. The police didn't even show up even after I told them we shot the dogs. Two weeks later I got a letter asking for confirmation of my gun's registration. I never heard a thing after that.

The main issues I see for pits is that they're bred easily, have large litters, and hold little to no currency value making them easily expendable to the wrong kinds of people. Part two of the issue for me is that there are no safeguards in place from the people who already own these dogs to keep them going to good homes. Add into this the cost these dogs toll upon society both in rescues, law enforcement, and prison sentences and I am left to wonder if they are indeed worth it. After all what does the average pit do that some other well tempered breed can't do better, more consistantly, and more in line with it's purpose.

I do feel for those who already own these dogs in places like Denver. I genuinely believe they love their pets like members of the family. They hold up signs in youtube vids that say "sorry you hate me", or "killed by BSL" but again. What does that dog do that can't be served by the average golden retriever,boxer, or cocker spaniel?

You don't really want to go down that road Melissa.
It's littered with corpses.

Your rant should be about poor owners. (maybe thats what you meant)


For info, they just busted up a big dog fighting ring in Texas.
Randy

Randy, It's always about poor owners and the dog's paying for the errors, neglect, greed, and stupidity of those owners. I've watched this thing grind on itself for the better part of twenty years and what I haven't seen as of yet is a solution that works.

The moment anyone brings up legislating anything involving dogs people hit the wall. I understand the slippery slope argument with it but at the same time, if we do the same thing from generation to generation and expect change we're insane. Either way it goes there will be corpses on the ground, they've been piling there for a long time.

 Quote: melissa thom

What does that dog do that can't be served by the average golden retriever,boxer, or cocker spaniel?

Wow. Just wow.
I will never turn my back on this breed that represented the US in WWI posters, the dog that was the most decorated war dog in history, the dog that my not so distant relatives brought over when they immigrated to America. The breed that was true to life in The Little Rascals films. The breed that presently holds nine of the top 20 UKC Superdog titles, http://www.napbta.com/superdogs.html , which is no easy feat.
I won't argue reasons for this breed to exist to someone who finds them interchangable with a golden, boxer or cocker spaniel. I would never call for any breed to be phased out of existance, even though I have my own preferences and opinions!
I don't put up "I'm sorry" vids on youtube, either. I'm too busy actually doing something about the problem by training my own shelter deathrow APBTs into their CGCs/TD titles, getting them into responsible homes and helping others do the same.
I loved this breed long before they became disposable items and I will never turn my back on them.

You didnt mean it to Melissa, but that one line about being served by any other breed reads like a real poke in the eye to people who like the breed.

So Melissa,
Any other breeds you think should be replaced with Labs, Goldens, and Spaniels?
I personally don't like foo foo lap dogs, nobody thinks they should be controlled because they're too small to do any damage. So they're always underfoot, coming up to challenge my dog who's undercontrol, and starting something they can't finish. Their really quite useless when you come right down to it. I mean just what are they good for anyways? They don't do anything.
You want to the pits breed to go away, I want the foo foos to be extinct. Let's get together for our common goals.

Randy

It has already been mentioned that the owners and irresponsible breeders are the problem with pitt bulls and no one argues this. So, what then if pitts are eradicated? These irresponsible people won't just go away. They will find another breed (probably one with a questionable rep already) to ruin. Then what? Will we have to eradicate dobes, boxers, bulldogs, malinois, shepherds, or whatever other breed they choose?

I agree that you can find poorly bred "pitt bulls" a lot cheaper than most other dogs, but that isn't because of their breed. It is because they are overbred by the wrong people and sold to the first person with the cash. The available and prevalence of redneck backyard breeders gives them their low cash value. It can happen to any breed.

I'm also not sure how a pitt bull compares in any way to a golden or a spaniel? They were developed for very different purposes and thus have very different temperaments and physiques. It is like comparing an apple to a banana ... the only similarity is that they are both fruit.

Melissa, the same things have been said in the past about Dobermans, Rottweilers, German Shepherds and even Bloodhounds.

You can villify any breed. It doesn't mean the breed is bad.

If we enforce the Animal Control laws we have on the books currently, we'd be fine. The problem is, like so many things in society, we pass laws that we don't enforce, and the problem gets worse. So, we pass more laws, that we fail to enforce. And so on, ad nauseum.

Moses Lake, WA just passed Breed Specific Legislation for Pits, Rottweilers and Presa Canarios. It is now impossible for those three breeds to participate in any protection-based sport, since they must be muzzled at all times outside of their own home.

During the final City Council meeting to pass the law, several City Council members mentioned that German Shepherds were equally as dangerous as the other three breeds.

King County wants to pass an ordinance banning tethering, and CRATING dogs. CRATING! This is what happens once the wildfire begins to spread.

I understand your attitude toward the slippery slope argument. What about the argument that BSL is ineffective. It's about as effective as gun control. If you outlaws guns, only outlaws will have them.

This is not to compare dogs to firearms, merely to make the parallel that irresponsible, bad dog owners don't abide by current Animal Control ordinances. What makes you think they'd adhere to new ones? You're only punishing responsible, law abiding dog owners when you pass these laws.

The breed is NOT worse, or more dangerous than any other breed. If this was true, you'd see pit bull attacks throughout history, and you do not. What you see is an increase in recent years, largely as the fall-out effect of sensationalist media reporting.

When a breed is portrayed as vicious, dangerous and tough, it attracts exactly the kind of irresponsible owners to the breed, that perpetuate the problem.

Well I had a feeling this wouldn’t be earning me popularity points.
Please don't misunderstand, I have for the most part very little interest in BSL, and am most days neutral on the matter. Why? Well, as with most things in life very few things become legislation for no reason, usually there is a story somewhere about why these things happen. I just think it's wrong on the side of dog owners/breeders to think that the BSL folks spawned their legislation out of boredom or geniune spite. Usually their concern is a valid one of wanting to feel safe from being bitten or mauled by a dog. When the dogs they see running around biting people on the news, or in their personal lives look an awful lot like one particular breed or group of dogs I am not shocked when they point at that one breed and say. Let's take care of that one. I'm not saying it's fair to those doing it right but even punishing the deed doesn't seem to prevent bites.
Then there is a significant social cost to this "breed". How much does it cost society in general to deal with the costs of a dog that is quite likely the most euthanized animal next to short haired cats in America? What is the percentage of pits that enter shelters in your area compared to other dogs? What is the adoption rate? I can speak from volunteer experience that the two shelters in this area won't even adopt out a pit. One just plain won't accept them and the other can't afford the liability insurance from what I'm told. The dog surrendered is held 3 days to see if any other rescue will take it and then euthanized. When I asked one of the staff about this policy they just said that even before the insurance issue when they first opened they held pits but when their shelter filled it rapidly became apparent that the adoption timeline for a pit became 5-6 months average with a 14 day average for most of the other dogs. Once the shelter became full, and decisions began to need to be made of who lives and who is euthanized it became clear that hard choices of adoptability needed to be made.

These dogs didn't create themselves. Someone somewhere decided that breeding their dog would be a good idea and if the dog community doesn't take responsibility for the cost of their actions or inactions effecting other people and society they shouldn't be shocked when someone does it for them. We already pay part this price collectively through dog licensing (who here pays more for intact dogs or even pits in their county?), home owners insurance (if you can get it), taxes, and shot records being monitored by the county in some areas. I accept this in the dog community as the cost for me having the privilege of owning dogs and do my part to help out the tide of animals that enter shelters that I can help. It's the least I can do to make sure I do have an active voice for my interests in my community and help a few dogs get adopted.

To answer the point of comparison between breeds. You miss the point. If the only justification people have for owning a dog is that they point to their dog and describe how loving he is and what a great pet therefore all pets like him must be fine. I can point to nearly any other breed with similar characteristics and ask the question. Wouldn't that one potentially be just as loving, and just as great a pet? I know truthfully if someone pointed to my dog Booker the papillon and then to my Labrador Willow and said If the criteria is only being a good dog and how loving they are would Willow and Booker be interchangeable? My answer would be a solid yes based upon those two criteria alone. Size, trainability, presentation, and utility all also play a role in my decision to own both of those dogs. I simply can't picture my papillon retrieving ducks and I can't see the Lab doing agility or sleeping on the foot of my recliner with the same oomph as the papillons. I just see "my dog is a good loving dog" as the only one presented during the argument against BSL for pits by the average pet owner. What does the average pet owner do with their dog that justifies why they own that particular type of dog? I like to think the world is just a little rational. Now there will be bad tempered dogs in every breed, but very few have the numbers of BYBers as pits, producing the numbers they do, or are as easily acquired by anyone with $50 in their pocket or a viewing on craigslist
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This post is getting a little longer than I intended so I’ll wrap it up and all I pretty much have to say on the matter. It’s always about the bad apples ruining it for the rest of us. My only thought on our bad apples is how to fix them because it breaks my heart seeing the cycle of insanity continue with BSL, dog owners, city officials, and shelters. Is a dog owner’s permit/education going to fix the issue? Is it a culture issue? Can the issue be fixed? For me the issue has never been about being for or against anything. It has always been about proper ownership, humane treatment, public safety and finding that place of community solidity that can come with it.

Finally this has veered way way off what the OP originally posted about. We should probably continue this in it's own thread if at all.